Frustrated... can't shoot 1/2 moa

[ExtremeX]

Is this a comprehensive list of things that should be done to an "out of the box" rifle to help "tighten it up", or are there additional steps that should be taken?

[Exodus343]

I had Nathan at Short Action Precision torque my mount and rings

so that part of the variable is out, now the stock I need to torque it again

[Stockton]

Not comprehensive to me at all. Just basic for the rifle. The rest as ExtremeX has stated.

[jetman624]

Well would someone mind posting a list of everything that should be done to a gun right out of the box to help insure you are getting the most out of it?

[ExtremeX]

I had Nathan at Short Action Precision torque my mount and rings

so that part of the variable is out, now the stock I need to torque it again

http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-TW-1-Torque-Wrench/dp/B000NVCI1U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378500412&sr=8-1&keywords=park+torque+wrench

[thegiff]

Well would someone mind posting a list of everything that should be done to a gun right out of the box to help insure you are getting the most out of it?

Nathan would do the job right, he has the tools and knowledge. A lot of gunshop "smiths" out there who install stuff for their customers don't know what they are doing. Case in point, I was at the range a while back and a guy is holding his pistol more and more gangsta style as he is shooting. I asked him what was up with that, he said he was keeping the crosshairs level. Hmmmm. His scope was loose, and was rotating, he had it installed by the kid behind the counter at the store he bought it from.

For what it is worth on an out of the box rifle and scope package.

I use Mountz torque tools, $300 each new, we have a bunch at work and I bought my own. Turns out they are available used on ebay for a lot less. But for most anyone the simplest easiest tool out there is the Borka torque wrench.

Remove the action, clean everything, put it back together.
Torque the action screws.
Install the scope base, rings, and scope, again all torqued to spec. I would check that the base is aligned properly, and if not mount using bedding compound.
Clean the barrel with some dry patches before taking the first shot.
Go shooting.

If the shots walk after this, then skim bed, and go shoot it again. Mine walked really bad until it was bedded, and it had the aluminum v block in it. I've also seen another similar rifle with a different bedding block that walked, and it quit walking when it was skim bedded.

[damndave]

Just throwing in my 2c here without reading all of the posts.

Just make sure the stock, rings, base etc are all torqued to spec.

Use commercial match ammo. 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match is a solid baseline more than capable that 1/2 moa.

Some people feel more comfortable with a bipod (myself included). Absolutely nothing wrong with using it.

I use a cheap Caldwell rear bag. Turn the bag CW/CCW to adjust your POA and to sturdy the rifle.

[LynnJr]

The discussion is not about 700 actions and their potential. The discussion is about 1-Remington 700 LTR Rifle out of the box and the shooter cannot obtain 1/2MOA accuracy. You are comparing his rifle and its ability to win world class bench rest matches in its existing form.


So either you are back pedaling or just lost at your point of disagreeing that his out of the box LTR needs nothing more than:
-Torquing the stock to action properly 65inch pounds according to engineers at HS Precision who designed the stock for the LTR
-Torquing the scope base according to the engineers who designed the base
-Torquing the rings according to the engineers who designed them
-Acquiring Match Grade Ammo or Hand loading
-Move rifle off the bipod to a more stable platform
-Work on his fundamentals of shooting
-All to achieve, at best, consistently 1 MOA, which is what is guaranteed by remington law enforcement division for this rifle.

So why would you start with deducting him from the equation before you have even set a baseline with the rifle by properly setting it up (Torque Specs)? To show him he's the problem? Really?

Lastly, I don't dispute any of your methods in obtaining accuracy. However you are discounting the facts of the rifle and its proper set up before you take the action out, put it in a vise, and tie a string to the trigger. Once you change a single part on that rifle to increase accuracy it is no longer an OUT OF THE BOX LTR which is what he has. Is it?

Stockton
I think if you re-read my earlier posts I never said he would get benchrest accuracy from a factory gun of any make.You are reading into this post something I have never said.
IF he is willing to do some work on this gun it could not only shoot 1/2 moa at 100 but it could do alot better than that was my point.
As to your list of torque specs you don't need to be an engineer to figure them out as most torque specs are available online for each size and grade of fastener.
His accuracy problem is not torque related unless something is falling off the rifle in question.
If he torques the action and the gun shoots better his stock needs bedding.I posted earlier how he could loosen and tighten the two action bolts and feel for any flex.Now before anyone wants to know how this works the human hand can easily detect 0.001 of movement and that is about the maximum he would want.
On the ammo this is likely were his accuracy problem actually is.
As to the Remington guarantee it only gives the major size not the minor size so in this example it means very little.
As to why I would deduct him from the equation that is a no brainer.He has very little shooting experience and needs to learn the fundamentals so we are taking all of that out of the equation.As we don't know if the action and scope are falling off we also take them out of the equation.We have never heard anything about his trigger which might be 5-8 pounds of pull and we would take that out of the equation as well.
Once all of this is removed from the equation we can now make the best possible ammunition for the barreled action in question to determine its capability.
It might be a 15/16 rifle at 100 yards and it might be a 5/16 rifle but as it stands now we don't know.
In accuracy shooting any time you can take away the human factor you should.
To your last concern if he barreled action is tested and found out to be a 15/16 moa set-up we need not waste any more time with this rifle as it sits.
If however we find out it shoots 5/16 moa we can now add back each part individually and find out how much each piece means to the rifles accuracy.
If most of the problem is his rings he can bed the base and loctite it in place.He can then open up his rings and bed the scope to the rings for a stress free mounting all of which he can do at home cheaply.
If it turns out his trigger pull is so heavy he is jerking the gun to get it to fire he knows he is looking at a new Jewell,Timney or Rifle Basix trigger.
And so on and so on.

[Stockton]

Stockton
I think if you re-read my earlier posts I never said he would get benchrest accuracy from a factory gun of any make.You are reading into this post something I have never said.
IF he is willing to do some work on this gun it could not only shoot 1/2 moa at 100 but it could do alot better than that was my point. And being upfront with him about a 1MOA rifle without any work is more attainable than 1/2MOA was deceiving somehow?
As to your list of torque specs you don't need to be an engineer to figure them out as most torque specs are available online for each size and grade of fastener.YOU wanted know how and where I came up with torquing
His accuracy problem is not torque related unless something is falling off the rifle in question. You are kidding right?
If he torques the action and the gun shoots better his stock needs bedding.I posted earlier how he could loosen and tighten the two action bolts and feel for any flex. Hmmm.... if that happens he achieved the proper basic setup of his rifle as designed didn't he? Bedding is not a part of the out of box config is it?Now before anyone wants to know how this works the human hand can easily detect 0.001 of movement and that is about the maximum he would want.
On the ammo this is likely were his accuracy problem actually is.
As to the Remington guarantee it only gives the major size not the minor size so in this example it means very little.
As to why I would deduct him from the equation that is a no brainer.He has very little shooting experience and needs to learn the fundamentals so we are taking all of that out of the equation.As we don't know if the action and scope are falling off we also take them out of the equation.We have never heard anything about his trigger which might be 5-8 pounds of pull and we would take that out of the equation as well.
Once all of this is removed from the equation we can now make the best possible ammunition for the barreled action in question to determine its capability.
It might be a 15/16 rifle at 100 yards and it might be a 5/16 rifle but as it stands now we don't know.
In accuracy shooting any time you can take away the human factor you should.
To your last concern if he barreled action is tested and found out to be a 15/16 moa set-up we need not waste any more time with this rifle as it sits.
If however we find out it shoots 5/16 moa we can now add back each part individually and find out how much each piece means to the rifles accuracy.
If most of the problem is his rings he can bed the base and loctite it in place.He can then open up his rings and bed the scope to the rings for a stress free mounting all of which he can do at home cheaply.
If it turns out his trigger pull is so heavy he is jerking the gun to get it to fire he knows he is looking at a new Jewell,Timney or Rifle Basix trigger.
And so on and so on.

I reread your posts and I still maintain my standpoint. I believe you need to reread your own posts.
The HS precision stock has an aluminum block in it that was designed so bedding would not be necessary but also requires torquing it to spec in order for it to work as designed. YOU asked why and where did I hear that. I already told you. Same for a scope base and rings. So why did you ask him to ask me as if it wasn't true or necessary? It does not have to be falling off to shift under recoil and produce a POA/POI difference. So once again you are failing to ensure the out of the box design is correct. How about being honest with him on his rifle as is, its accuracy, components, and his abilities before leading him on a chase for bench rest world records potential? And if you cannot help him with the basic proper configuration with his rifle "as is" why even help? Once again, all other info I am not disputing in obtaining accuracy but you still fail to help in setting up that LTR in its proper out of the box configuration as designed.....First.

[russ69]

...The HS precision stock has an aluminum block in it that was designed so bedding would not be necessary but also requires torquing it to spec in order for it to work as designed...

Well, that's the idea anyway. The problem is that the REM700 receiver tubes are not always straight after heat treatment. Most rifles would do better with a skim coat of bedding to account for any warping of the receiver.

[Stockton]

Always the next step to bed no doubt.

After a heads up on Lynn's negative background I degress any further positive discussion.

[postal]

Oh... come on people.....

We've all heard about the many, many rifles out there- that shoot WORSE after bedding regardless of stock/pillars/chassis/blocks....

Oh wait.... That's something we never hear about....

So... *maybe* bedding wont make any difference at all.... but usually it does... and is better than without bedding.

[dlouie87]

Why do these precision threads always turn into a pissing match?

Obviously the shooter has unrealistic expectations for the STOCK LTR rifle with factory second projectile for reloads.

I mean, I'm not in a position to tell him how to spend his money but he has already started a thread on getting a large caliber AR as well. If he was serious about precision/long range shooting or just wanted to get better groups, he should stick with one platform and learn how to shoot on that platform before jumping to another platform. I'm sure there will be another thread about why one can get 1/2 MOA from their semi-auto and it'll be another thread like this. He would benefit so much more by spending the money on bedding the receiver, purchasing better reloading components, etc. More importantly, spend more time behind the rifle to get comfortably and proficient with the fundamentals.

[postal]

^^^

HUH?!

Sound advice.... on a thread like this? That's not what we've come to expect from the calguns community...

[dlouie87]

^^^

HUH?!

Sound advice.... on a thread like this? That's not what we've come to expect from the calguns community...

hahaha.... more like a rant. I would like to see how many of these threads pop up a month.