Recommendation for beginner

[milotrain]

Except they absolutely can; that you couldn't doesn't mean it isn't possible. There are tons of folks on CG who shoot cheap production rifles exceptionally well. Like I said, the rifle itself is extremely low on the list of reasons why people are off target. If you are a serious long distance shooter then you know this to be true.

While agree that there are "good value" rifles that are very accurate I don't agree that "There are tons of folks on CG who shoot cheap production rifles exceptionally well." For the first there are very few accurate cheap production rifles, and for the second there are not a ton of good rifle shooters on Calguns.

[ar15barrels]

While agree that there are "good value" rifles that are very accurate I don't agree that "There are tons of folks on CG who shoot cheap production rifles exceptionally well." For the first there are very few accurate cheap production rifles, and for the second there are not a ton of good rifle shooters on Calguns.

Its all about frame of reference.
If you are a 40 percentile shooter, all those 50-60 percentile shooters would seem to be really good shooters to you.
When you are a 95 percentile shooter, having your target look like a target from those 50-60 percentile shooters might make you throw up in your mouth a little.

[diver160651]

Recommendation for beginner

I've met a lot of guys who have won a title over the years in one discipline or another, but then can't find an accurate solution in another style of long range precision shooting.. does that then make them less than good shooter?

I think the perch we sit on can really color our perception.

[TMB 1]

While agree that there are "good value" rifles that are very accurate I don't agree that "There are tons of folks on CG who shoot cheap production rifles exceptionally well." For the first there are very few accurate cheap production rifles, and for the second there are not a ton of good rifle shooters on Calguns.

Its all about frame of reference.
If you are a 40 percentile shooter, all those 50-60 percentile shooters would seem to be really good shooters to you.
When you are a 95 percentile shooter, having your target look like a target from those 50-60 percentile shooters might make you throw up in your mouth a little.

Can you guys out shoot those guys using their cheap production rifle? or will you have to get something better to out shoot them? If you're a 95 percentile shooter shouldn't you be able to out shoot a 60 percentile shooter with his own rifle?

[diver160651]

Recommendation for beginner

Can you guys out shoot those guys using their cheap production rifle? or will you have to get something better to out shoot them? If you're a 95 percentile shooter shouldn't you be able to out shoot a 60 percentile shooter with his own rifle?

Yes, in some types of shooting (I assume we are still talking long range precision) were the emphasis is on the shooter adjusting for range, with multiple AOF and or positions.

A really squared away person running a subtensioned scope well, with something like a $399 Predator in 6.5 can certainly make another with a 4-5k gun scratch their head if they aren't as squared away using the reticle. Certainly even more so in variable high winds.

But in some types of shooting were way less emphasis is placed on the shooter's mechanics, and way more on the equipment like Benchrest with on a calm day, the answer might be different.

Point being there is no one solution because the usage scope can be so large.

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[milotrain]

Can you guys out shoot those guys using their cheap production rifle? or will you have to get something better to out shoot them? If you're a 95 percentile shooter shouldn't you be able to out shoot a 60 percentile shooter with his own rifle?

Maybe. I don't have enough pride to claim that I can without actually being in the situation. The bigger issue is that I would never have become a good shooter if I hadn't started with better gear. After a match you can find out usually how "on" you were by talking to others about how much wind they put on. If you are not shooting well you end up dialing on a lot of wind because you are grouping too large, and if you are shooting well you end up with very little wind change. The same is true with a "decently" accurate rifle. You end up having to work a lot harder, and when you are still developing your fundamentals its almost impossible to figure out if you made a mistake or if your rifle did.

There is absolutely nothing I like more than seeing a new shooter get good and crushing me at the range. It's happened a lot because I'm pretty bad among people who are actually good. But seeing the light come on for a new shooter when they realize how much better they can get, to see what's possible when all they've seen on the range and on the internet is pretty basic, is a real treat. It's like they learned they had a super power. It's great fun to be there for that, and I just want more people to experience it.

[ar15barrels]

Can you guys out shoot those guys using their cheap production rifle?

Yes.
With the same equipment, shooter skill will absolutely determine the winner.

[TMB 1]

Maybe. I don't have enough pride to claim that I can without actually being in the situation. The bigger issue is that I would never have become a good shooter if I hadn't started with better gear. After a match you can find out usually how "on" you were by talking to others about how much wind they put on. If you are not shooting well you end up dialing on a lot of wind because you are grouping too large, and if you are shooting well you end up with very little wind change. The same is true with a "decently" accurate rifle. You end up having to work a lot harder, and when you are still developing your fundamentals its almost impossible to figure out if you made a mistake or if your rifle did.

There is absolutely nothing I like more than seeing a new shooter get good and crushing me at the range. It's happened a lot because I'm pretty bad among people who are actually good. But seeing the light come on for a new shooter when they realize how much better they can get, to see what's possible when all they've seen on the range and on the internet is pretty basic, is a real treat. It's like they learned they had a super power. It's great fun to be there for that, and I just want more people to experience it.

Yes.
With the same equipment, shooter skill will absolutely determine the winner.

I worded my question wrong, but the point I was trying to make because it sounds like you guys were saying that because someone's factory rifle will only shoot 1", 2", 3" or whatever size groups they are not good shooters. Just trying to figure out how your shooting skill is going to make any of those rifles shoot smaller groups?

[ar15barrels]

I worded my question wrong, but the point I was trying to make because it sounds like you guys were saying that because someone's factory rifle will only shoot 1", 2", 3" or whatever size groups they are not good shooters. Just trying to figure out how your shooting skill is going to make any of those rifles shoot smaller groups?

It's primarily the person who shoots a cheap rifle that is the limiting factor in how well the rifle shoots. The rifle is a 1", 2" or 3" rifle because it's operated by a 1", 2" or 3" shooter.
The same rifle will normally shoot better in the hands of a better shooter.
The kind of people that shoot top quality rifles also happen to be the kind of people that get professional instruction, follow a training regimen and compete.
The guy with no formal training, no regular controlled practice to gauge competence and no tuning done on his rifle to improve its performance is simply not going to equal or better the shooter who takes it so much more seriously.

[milotrain]

A 2moa rifle in the hands of a good shooter is a 2-3moa rifle. In the hands of a poor shooter it's a 6mpa rifle. Use this ratio across all types of rifles and see the repercussions of being a poor shooter.

[grenades42]

Hey OP, do you have an AR already? Why not get a match grade barrel and scope for it. Then learn mid-range shooting with a DMR. Not as much precision as a bolt gun, but you could get quality parts within your budget, while getting experience with a scope at the ranges you want initially.

[TMB 1]

Hey OP, do you have an AR already? Why not get a match grade barrel and scope for it. Then learn mid-range shooting with a DMR. Not as much precision as a bolt gun, but you could get quality parts within your budget, while getting experience with a scope at the ranges you want initially.

Argument against that is, got to have a bolt action 308 that is capable of putting all the bullets through the same hole or you'll never become a good shot. Otherwise the beginner could get a factory bolt action 223 and do exactly that.

[diver160651]

Recommendation for beginner

A 2moa rifle in the hands of a good shooter is a 2-3moa rifle. In the hands of a poor shooter it's a 6mpa rifle. Use this ratio across all types of rifles and see the repercussions of being a poor shooter.

This plus many factories offerings are sub MOA--- and target acquisition, managing a changing COF, isn't about just the sub MOA guns


You can give one a 15k gun and if he can't run the scope effectively he can't compete period in some types of situations or matches.

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[russ69]

Service rifle...

Agree 100%. The match grade AR15 is the cheapest way to get started with a good accurate gun. You will learn everything you need to become a good shooter. It will take you to the 1000 yard line, the national matches and the highest shooting honors in this country...it's all up to you.

[LynnJr]

TMB1
If you take a brand new shooter to the 1000 yard line and let them shoot a Benchrest heavygun most will shoot a 10 inch or smaller 5 shot group. At 100 yards they will shoot 3/8 of an inch or less. Women tend to do better there first time out because believe it or not they listen where men already have it all figured out.

Diver
You really seem to think the FFP scope is the answer to all the world's problems with its subtensions and that there isn't much to shooting Benchrest.
In the real world most Benchrest shooters wouldn't consider your rifles to be very accurate. You need 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 1000 yards to be in the hunt.
You can go to Sacramento on the 4th Sunday of any month and open a can of whooparse on those guys with those I'll shooting Benchrest rifles who think those lousy SFP scopes are okay and not the latest gadgets to be military sniper Wannabees.

OP
Most shooters I see at the range are better shooters than they give themselves credit for. Bad equipment makes you a bad shooter. Low powered scopes are detrimental to accuracy heavy trigger pulls are detrimental to accuracy and guns shot off of crummy rests that don't fit the stock are detrimental to accuracy.
You can put Alain Prost or Aryton Senna into a Volkswagen beetle but don't expect them to win many titles with it no matter how good they can drive.