Tweet
Lynn,
I am the worst one on here to try to type something that is easy to read. Maybe it is not even legible and certainly not without sounding something other than I hear in my head as I type. This is a way bigger topic than I am capable of addressing fairly via typing, nor it seems are many others. Maybe the best attempt is to take parts out of the discussion and only focus on a couple of points. I will be taking about subtensions not SFP vrs FFP for the most part and only barely touching on the topic. I am not trying to spawn a debate, just answer you honestly with a 30k view. I know you know much of this, but I don't think it would make sense if I don't put mention of them in context.
I'll attempt to quickly glass over the main benefits of a subtensioned scope and spotter, but I'll need to really miss most all the real meat.
To even begin to understand the intrinsic value of subtensions, we have to be willing to let go some of our perceptions and biases. We also have to understand that without taking the time to truly learn them, they are of little value. More often than not, when only one person has them, the value is many times less than if the shooter and spotter (now, this is mostly, 2 guys on scopes) have them in the same units of measure, same understanding and discipline in communication.
The amount of training covered in using the subtended scopes isn’t something to take lightly. It isn’t going to come from a YouTube video, Website or a silly post like mine. The PRS crowed might have spent years perfecting their hold-overs/unders and wind. The top MIL/FED guys will get there fine tuning along with other skills on top of what they already trained for in one of the advanced training cycles such as from: USANG 4 weeks, USAF 3 weeks, USMC Scout 7 weeks, US Army S 7 weeks, SOTIC 6 weeks, DESS 2-3weeks, HRT and of course the Navy guys with an goodly long course.
General conversation points to narrow the focus:
• Subtensions are not for everyone. Some people buy them; have no idea how to use them effectively and they end up disappointed.
• Lets assume we are NOT talking about Benchrest/F-class -same as benchrest, but on your belly.
• Lets assume that we are not talking about Square range shooting. By that I mean, any location were the FFP to target relationship is the same and were you’ll only shoot at one target. This concept seems easy when you think of a place like Folsom or Coalinga on the 1K ranges. Here repetitive use provides intimate knowledge of the topography, distance and wind flags. These all provide the home users with tremendous feedback, eliminates the need for accurate dope curves and provides learned advantages that certainly lesson the value of subtensions. Taking it a step further, lets also include your ELR location or any similar, as the FFP and target are always the same and it now is similar to “square range”.
• There are a tremendous amount of styles of subtensioned reticles available. Some busy, some thick, some fine, some with floating centers and some with floating centers that zoom to a very small center aim. Let’s just assume there are some options.
• For the discussion, lets also forget about ranging capabilities
• Lets assume the reticles match the turrets; but drop the MRAD VRS MOA reticle debate.
• Let drop the turret click values .25+" 1/4"moa vas .36" .1mil OR .125+" I/8moa vrs .18" .05mil turrets,
• Lets even forget SFP vrs FFP at least for the moment.
• LE – Forget long range, shooters will almost never be given clearance much past 100m, so most of their needs are communication based.
• MIL/FED –While parts can apply, this is different ball game so lets also forget their needs in intel comms, mapping, wind, usage for leads, dope, multiple targets and multiple fast engagements, physical back up to electronics.
• Let forget altogether about BDCs, as they are just a Marketing Gimmick, unless, you’re issued mil only stuff like SS109/M855 NATO, the matching length barrel, optic and under-trained. Otherwise, they sport turrets that do match the reticle, a bullet drop that is never really accurate. To top it off, they are marketed to short range hunters were the acceptable accuracy of the BDC is within the PBZ range of a duplex.
• Mall Ninja – enough said
Removing most of the above from the discussion, we must also segregate the usage. As I type this I am sure you’ll be scathing our head and thinking.. Ya, what the hell are subtensions good for then?
Well, subtensions are nothing more than a scale or ruler, but the applications are mostly what’s misunderstood and under appreciated. As such, the Marketing guys, mainly in the US market, have really messed with stuff and our heads to sell more scopes. They now promote the cheaper alternatives that are not always accurate. So the first question is, would I ever need an inaccurate ruler? Sands something like the PCP market were people use parallax ranging and SFP to split holds ~ I’d say NO.
Glossed over: Accurate Subtension benefits over duplex:
Glassing:
The main benefit is to a team and the communication it brings. Of course, generally when glassing you have lots of time to communicate. But imaging several people looking through their optics at the same time, and trying to communicate just what they are looking at. We've all been there and it can be kinda hard without reference points, I've seen guys lost in their glass. See Commination and Spotting.
Hunting LR:
The key here is that at low power you’re usually at short range and need FOV over everything else. At short range <200 etc no hold overs are needed. This means the subtensions do not matter and a zoomed out, subtensioned scope works like a duplex. As distance increases, the need for holds increase as does windage holds, FOV isn’t as important so increasing magnification and thus subtension visibility works well. However, it is still uncommon to be on max on a LR high zoom ratio scope, thus both scenarios rendering SFP fairy useless. Combined with a quick terrain map and accurate at all zoom level subtensions, this combination provides unequalled speed in accurate shot placement when an animal appears at distances other than the one game trail you otherwise might be forced to focus on. There’s not a need to dial, nothing to guess.
Hunter/Sniper, Field style events:
Again, much like hunting, a bit like PRS in that you’ll have multiple stations but were often you might get only one shot attempt at each target with a time element or another type of physical challenge or nav added. Using the subtension wind holds is really common.
Dynamic events such as PRS:
Just like hunting, but emphasizes position, speed and accuracy across multiple stations were some shoots can be 1500+. A super tight time element is usually present once set into position. The shooter might get 30 seconds and sometimes less to get 4-5 small targets spread out a various distances from 300-900 or whatever. BTW this is NOT 3-Gun – AKA Run and Gun.. This is long range precision shooting made much harder by time and out of position shooting elements.
Long Range shooting/spotting/ELR ~off square ranges:
First it is import to note that often you will not be lucky enough to shoot peak to peak, from or to an elevated target as seen in some special locations like ko2m. As such, mirage is generally going to limit usable zooms often <25x. The last thing you want to do is be looking at a muddy displaced image. Generally, mirage for both the spotter and shooter will result in the pair being on reduced and different zoom powers (this is a key that defeats SFP).
Because of general optical disturbances even outside of mirage, such as haze and dust that come hand in hand with ELR, the aiming technique a BR/F shooter might use, might be as easily replicated by bracketing and bisecting. So the razor thin duplex isn’t necessarily better, as there is often far less target detail to index a duplex. However, it almost always is more comforting to those that use them. But then so again is that VHS player.
As the distances are generally greater, scope travel is a premium and it is better to use part of the subtensions, than to use a POA over the target, a mechanical devise that isn't 100% repeatable or a base that relegates the system to a single purpose tool.
In ELR, as you know, quick corrections almost always end with a better hit percentage. There are no wind flags along the way that can be used to signal when to go or to wait until the wind window is exactly the same as your practice period. Don’t get me wrong, a good wind reader is going to always have an advantage; but at those distances, the variability makes it tough for everyone. Having the ability to judge how the frag or miss splash, moves across the subtensions in the scope gives an accurate wind mph estimates at the target location. This is easiest based off the wind call vrs the correction needed and a great learning tool. It isn’t everything but it is huge. (See communication/spotting & wind)
Wind long range ELR:
Calling the shot and monitoring for corrections is key to super fast follow-ups. Super fast follow-ups = better chance at impacts in many cases. (See communication/spotting)
Often in ELR we often see 3-6mils (6 mils is 20.6moa) of wind or more needed with rapid shifts between them. In this case, you can’t really dial for the wind windows or for every shot as effectively as you might in the BR/F match. While one can hold with a duplex generally well at 1k, using with a standard paper target and index with high magnification effectively; it is many times harder as the bullets slow, the wind call get larger, optical disturbances keep the image from being as sharp, heat further reduces the zoom power and ability to index like you might at 1K. With subtensions, you can quickly and easily repeat precise wind holds and corrections from your spotting partner.
Communication and Spotting Long Range/ELR:
I think this one is the more critical than many people give credit. Imagine the times a shooter has dropped down and looked for the target, lost in their scope, a guy spotting trying to talk them in. It is always much faster when you can simple both find a common object and the go up/down 18mils or 60+ish moa, left/right 9mils or 40+moa, etc. – (this can also be an issue in long range hunting)
For this to work everyone must be using the same language. As an example, HOLD means WAIT (to many teams), not hold over there on the target. Yet, it is common to hear the spotter, even with subtensions, say something like. “Ah, ah, you, ah, hit, ah missed, about 1 mil left, ah HOLD 1-1/2 more to the right and a you were a little low, I mean aim at the top of the plate”. Man, what a mouth full. Note that the shooter is already holding something and maybe dialed for elevation, lets just say 3 right. If that’s the case, we have a cluster already. The spotting person needs to have the same starting POA in their scope or spotter so the correction could be faster and clearer. In this case, maybe the correction might sound like “Correction, Up 1/2 :: R 4-1/2 ”. With that speed and clarity, the shooter has a much better chance wind wise, not to mention even accomplishing the correct POA. Now imagine trying to communicate the same with each person on a different system.. We have to have the same langue, this also means the same and accurate subtensions values. Using a duplex and parts of gongs, is just not effective.
The communication is very important and the topic and benefits goes on and on, as does each of these. There is no free lunch. Nobody is going to get a subtensioned scope and instantly be a better communicator unless they put effort into it.
Now, onto SFP/DBC… Who wants a scale or ruler that is guaranteed to be incorrect most of the time? Usually, when the person has mistakenly bumped, turned or forgotten what zoom level they are on, wrong calls are made, just a cluster when used to communicate in a spotter/shooter setup.
Of course just my view points~ nothing more.
I am the worst one on here to try to type something that is easy to read. Maybe it is not even legible and certainly not without sounding something other than I hear in my head as I type. This is a way bigger topic than I am capable of addressing fairly via typing, nor it seems are many others. Maybe the best attempt is to take parts out of the discussion and only focus on a couple of points. I will be taking about subtensions not SFP vrs FFP for the most part and only barely touching on the topic. I am not trying to spawn a debate, just answer you honestly with a 30k view. I know you know much of this, but I don't think it would make sense if I don't put mention of them in context.
I'll attempt to quickly glass over the main benefits of a subtensioned scope and spotter, but I'll need to really miss most all the real meat.
To even begin to understand the intrinsic value of subtensions, we have to be willing to let go some of our perceptions and biases. We also have to understand that without taking the time to truly learn them, they are of little value. More often than not, when only one person has them, the value is many times less than if the shooter and spotter (now, this is mostly, 2 guys on scopes) have them in the same units of measure, same understanding and discipline in communication.
The amount of training covered in using the subtended scopes isn’t something to take lightly. It isn’t going to come from a YouTube video, Website or a silly post like mine. The PRS crowed might have spent years perfecting their hold-overs/unders and wind. The top MIL/FED guys will get there fine tuning along with other skills on top of what they already trained for in one of the advanced training cycles such as from: USANG 4 weeks, USAF 3 weeks, USMC Scout 7 weeks, US Army S 7 weeks, SOTIC 6 weeks, DESS 2-3weeks, HRT and of course the Navy guys with an goodly long course.
General conversation points to narrow the focus:
• Subtensions are not for everyone. Some people buy them; have no idea how to use them effectively and they end up disappointed.
• Lets assume we are NOT talking about Benchrest/F-class -same as benchrest, but on your belly.
• Lets assume that we are not talking about Square range shooting. By that I mean, any location were the FFP to target relationship is the same and were you’ll only shoot at one target. This concept seems easy when you think of a place like Folsom or Coalinga on the 1K ranges. Here repetitive use provides intimate knowledge of the topography, distance and wind flags. These all provide the home users with tremendous feedback, eliminates the need for accurate dope curves and provides learned advantages that certainly lesson the value of subtensions. Taking it a step further, lets also include your ELR location or any similar, as the FFP and target are always the same and it now is similar to “square range”.
• There are a tremendous amount of styles of subtensioned reticles available. Some busy, some thick, some fine, some with floating centers and some with floating centers that zoom to a very small center aim. Let’s just assume there are some options.
• For the discussion, lets also forget about ranging capabilities
• Lets assume the reticles match the turrets; but drop the MRAD VRS MOA reticle debate.
• Let drop the turret click values .25+" 1/4"moa vas .36" .1mil OR .125+" I/8moa vrs .18" .05mil turrets,
• Lets even forget SFP vrs FFP at least for the moment.
• LE – Forget long range, shooters will almost never be given clearance much past 100m, so most of their needs are communication based.
• MIL/FED –While parts can apply, this is different ball game so lets also forget their needs in intel comms, mapping, wind, usage for leads, dope, multiple targets and multiple fast engagements, physical back up to electronics.
• Let forget altogether about BDCs, as they are just a Marketing Gimmick, unless, you’re issued mil only stuff like SS109/M855 NATO, the matching length barrel, optic and under-trained. Otherwise, they sport turrets that do match the reticle, a bullet drop that is never really accurate. To top it off, they are marketed to short range hunters were the acceptable accuracy of the BDC is within the PBZ range of a duplex.
• Mall Ninja – enough said
Removing most of the above from the discussion, we must also segregate the usage. As I type this I am sure you’ll be scathing our head and thinking.. Ya, what the hell are subtensions good for then?
Well, subtensions are nothing more than a scale or ruler, but the applications are mostly what’s misunderstood and under appreciated. As such, the Marketing guys, mainly in the US market, have really messed with stuff and our heads to sell more scopes. They now promote the cheaper alternatives that are not always accurate. So the first question is, would I ever need an inaccurate ruler? Sands something like the PCP market were people use parallax ranging and SFP to split holds ~ I’d say NO.
Glossed over: Accurate Subtension benefits over duplex:
Glassing:
The main benefit is to a team and the communication it brings. Of course, generally when glassing you have lots of time to communicate. But imaging several people looking through their optics at the same time, and trying to communicate just what they are looking at. We've all been there and it can be kinda hard without reference points, I've seen guys lost in their glass. See Commination and Spotting.
Hunting LR:
The key here is that at low power you’re usually at short range and need FOV over everything else. At short range <200 etc no hold overs are needed. This means the subtensions do not matter and a zoomed out, subtensioned scope works like a duplex. As distance increases, the need for holds increase as does windage holds, FOV isn’t as important so increasing magnification and thus subtension visibility works well. However, it is still uncommon to be on max on a LR high zoom ratio scope, thus both scenarios rendering SFP fairy useless. Combined with a quick terrain map and accurate at all zoom level subtensions, this combination provides unequalled speed in accurate shot placement when an animal appears at distances other than the one game trail you otherwise might be forced to focus on. There’s not a need to dial, nothing to guess.
Hunter/Sniper, Field style events:
Again, much like hunting, a bit like PRS in that you’ll have multiple stations but were often you might get only one shot attempt at each target with a time element or another type of physical challenge or nav added. Using the subtension wind holds is really common.
Dynamic events such as PRS:
Just like hunting, but emphasizes position, speed and accuracy across multiple stations were some shoots can be 1500+. A super tight time element is usually present once set into position. The shooter might get 30 seconds and sometimes less to get 4-5 small targets spread out a various distances from 300-900 or whatever. BTW this is NOT 3-Gun – AKA Run and Gun.. This is long range precision shooting made much harder by time and out of position shooting elements.
Long Range shooting/spotting/ELR ~off square ranges:
First it is import to note that often you will not be lucky enough to shoot peak to peak, from or to an elevated target as seen in some special locations like ko2m. As such, mirage is generally going to limit usable zooms often <25x. The last thing you want to do is be looking at a muddy displaced image. Generally, mirage for both the spotter and shooter will result in the pair being on reduced and different zoom powers (this is a key that defeats SFP).
Because of general optical disturbances even outside of mirage, such as haze and dust that come hand in hand with ELR, the aiming technique a BR/F shooter might use, might be as easily replicated by bracketing and bisecting. So the razor thin duplex isn’t necessarily better, as there is often far less target detail to index a duplex. However, it almost always is more comforting to those that use them. But then so again is that VHS player.
As the distances are generally greater, scope travel is a premium and it is better to use part of the subtensions, than to use a POA over the target, a mechanical devise that isn't 100% repeatable or a base that relegates the system to a single purpose tool.
In ELR, as you know, quick corrections almost always end with a better hit percentage. There are no wind flags along the way that can be used to signal when to go or to wait until the wind window is exactly the same as your practice period. Don’t get me wrong, a good wind reader is going to always have an advantage; but at those distances, the variability makes it tough for everyone. Having the ability to judge how the frag or miss splash, moves across the subtensions in the scope gives an accurate wind mph estimates at the target location. This is easiest based off the wind call vrs the correction needed and a great learning tool. It isn’t everything but it is huge. (See communication/spotting & wind)
Wind long range ELR:
Calling the shot and monitoring for corrections is key to super fast follow-ups. Super fast follow-ups = better chance at impacts in many cases. (See communication/spotting)
Often in ELR we often see 3-6mils (6 mils is 20.6moa) of wind or more needed with rapid shifts between them. In this case, you can’t really dial for the wind windows or for every shot as effectively as you might in the BR/F match. While one can hold with a duplex generally well at 1k, using with a standard paper target and index with high magnification effectively; it is many times harder as the bullets slow, the wind call get larger, optical disturbances keep the image from being as sharp, heat further reduces the zoom power and ability to index like you might at 1K. With subtensions, you can quickly and easily repeat precise wind holds and corrections from your spotting partner.
Communication and Spotting Long Range/ELR:
I think this one is the more critical than many people give credit. Imagine the times a shooter has dropped down and looked for the target, lost in their scope, a guy spotting trying to talk them in. It is always much faster when you can simple both find a common object and the go up/down 18mils or 60+ish moa, left/right 9mils or 40+moa, etc. – (this can also be an issue in long range hunting)
For this to work everyone must be using the same language. As an example, HOLD means WAIT (to many teams), not hold over there on the target. Yet, it is common to hear the spotter, even with subtensions, say something like. “Ah, ah, you, ah, hit, ah missed, about 1 mil left, ah HOLD 1-1/2 more to the right and a you were a little low, I mean aim at the top of the plate”. Man, what a mouth full. Note that the shooter is already holding something and maybe dialed for elevation, lets just say 3 right. If that’s the case, we have a cluster already. The spotting person needs to have the same starting POA in their scope or spotter so the correction could be faster and clearer. In this case, maybe the correction might sound like “Correction, Up 1/2 :: R 4-1/2 ”. With that speed and clarity, the shooter has a much better chance wind wise, not to mention even accomplishing the correct POA. Now imagine trying to communicate the same with each person on a different system.. We have to have the same langue, this also means the same and accurate subtensions values. Using a duplex and parts of gongs, is just not effective.
The communication is very important and the topic and benefits goes on and on, as does each of these. There is no free lunch. Nobody is going to get a subtensioned scope and instantly be a better communicator unless they put effort into it.
Now, onto SFP/DBC… Who wants a scale or ruler that is guaranteed to be incorrect most of the time? Usually, when the person has mistakenly bumped, turned or forgotten what zoom level they are on, wrong calls are made, just a cluster when used to communicate in a spotter/shooter setup.
Of course just my view points~ nothing more.
Comment