Both Eyes Open

[vliberatore]

I was talking about no sight shooting.

[Dizturbed One]

Sorry, didn't read the entire thread and that wasn't clear in the original post.

Honestly, I think you're shooting fine then. A 6" group at 10 yards without using the sights is a good defensive group, and I'm sure will only get better the more you shoot.

As someone else said, finding a constant reference on your hand to "point" with can help tremendously with that. In a defensive situation, I'm still looking down my sight though. If my gun is up and the decision to use lethal force is already made, I'd be more worried about missing than about watching whatever is going on. I want the fastest take down possible, regardless of what they're doing.

[JTROKS]

While balancing on a tight rope and walking across the grand canyon

Let's be real!


On a 15 degree incline on top of a skateboard balancing a reverse wheelie... That's more doable.

[Kempfer]

So the last few times to the range I have tried shooting with both eyes open. I feel like this would be more realistic in mimicing a "real-life" defensive situation where I wouldn't want to close an eye to shoot in order to defend myself.
My groups have improved over these few range trips, but I still feel like there's a lot of room for improvement (12" group @ 10yds). Any ideas to help me improve on my next range visit?

EDIT: I should have clarified this, I am working on defensive style shooting by not using sights, but rather my natural point of aim. Sorry if my OP sounded like I'm all over the place.

Both Eyes Open focused on Target 2-25 yards depending on proficiency

Try that sight picture, it is a respectable realistic defensive sight picture. No sight shooting is only faster at contact range (0-1 yd), otherwise the above sight picture is just as fast but more accurate to about 10-25 yards depending on how proficient you are.

Your inaccuracies will come from two things:
1) Sight alignment
To get good sight alignment you want to develop a good index. What I mean by index is wherever you point the gun no matter what position you are in your sights will be pretty much lined up. To get that takes time but the key is to practice a consistent draw stroke from the holster to presentation. The goal is to develop procedural memory so that you only need to see the front sight, your upper body will line up the rest. Of course you need to practice this SIGHTED, otherwise how would you know if your lined up correctly. Do this dry and with live fire.

Goal is draw (from concealment) 1 shot to the A-zone in under 2.0 seconds (1.70 for no concealment) from 6 yards COLD (meaning no warm up). That is just a goal, not a magical standard that says you are good to go. But if you reach that point you probably are beyond the advice of youtube, the internet and forum instruction.

2) Trigger Control
To get good trigger control, shoot from 25 yards at a NRA B-8 target. Go ahead and close one eye, you are only working on one thing and that is trigger control.
Once you start scoring in the 90's (x-ring = -0 pts, 9-ring = -1 pts, 8-ring = -2 pts, etc.. miss = -10pts. 10 shot string for maximum score of 100) start shooting faster until you can get a string done in under 20 seconds (including draw). Then start sending the target back.

The above and doing sighted shooting will get you on the way to what I think is your goal. I'd spend time achieving the above two goals. When you reach them I would start looking for training if you are interested. If you only had to spend once I would recommend any class or curriculum run by people affiliated with Army SF operators or the training of them. (Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor, JD Potensky, Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Pat Macnamara, Kyle Defoor who is a Navy SEAL). If you could spend as much as you want on training then just do whatever, you'll get there.

Don't let other people think for you, think for yourself. You are just here to collect information.

Hope that helps,

[USMC 82-86]

Both Eyes Open focused on Target 2-25 yards depending on proficiency

Try that sight picture, it is a respectable realistic defensive sight picture. No sight shooting is only faster at contact range (0-1 yd), otherwise the above sight picture is just as fast but more accurate to about 10-25 yards depending on how proficient you are.

Your inaccuracies will come from two things:
1) Sight alignment
To get good sight alignment you want to develop a good index. What I mean by index is wherever you point the gun no matter what position you are in your sights will be pretty much lined up. To get that takes time but the key is to practice a consistent draw stroke from the holster to presentation. The goal is to develop procedural memory so that you only need to see the front sight, your upper body will line up the rest. Of course you need to practice this SIGHTED, otherwise how would you know if your lined up correctly. Do this dry and with live fire.

Goal is draw (from concealment) 1 shot to the A-zone in under 2.0 seconds (1.70 for no concealment) from 6 yards COLD (meaning no warm up). That is just a goal, not a magical standard that says you are good to go. But if you reach that point you probably are beyond the advice of youtube, the internet and forum instruction.

2) Trigger Control
To get good trigger control, shoot from 25 yards at a NRA B-8 target. Go ahead and close one eye, you are only working on one thing and that is trigger control.
Once you start scoring in the 90's (x-ring = -0 pts, 9-ring = -1 pts, 8-ring = -2 pts, etc.. miss = -10pts. 10 shot string for maximum score of 100) start shooting faster until you can get a string done in under 20 seconds (including draw). Then start sending the target back.

The above and doing sighted shooting will get you on the way to what I think is your goal. I'd spend time achieving the above two goals. When you reach them I would start looking for training if you are interested. If you only had to spend once I would recommend any class or curriculum run by people affiliated with Army SF operators or the training of them. (Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor, JD Potensky, Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Pat Macnamara, Kyle Defoor who is a Navy SEAL). If you could spend as much as you want on training then just do whatever, you'll get there.

Don't let other people think for you, think for yourself. You are just here to collect information.

Hope that helps,

This is very much like the target focused shooting I was talking about in my post. The sight picture shown is more than adequate for defensive shooting and can be very accurate even out to 25 yards. I may not be precise but I can be accurate using this system all day long.

[scootle]

I'm a little confused what the OP is trying to accomplish with the "unsighted" shooting as described. In almost all formal training, sighted fire is important because it establishes the mechanics of proper grip, stance, trigger control, and most importantly, follow-through.

If you are trying to do "flash" shooting, there are several methods out there that use things like the body of the slide, or the front-sight only (no rear) to establish a reference point *at short ranges*. If your eyes are open, you will be using something as a visual reference... this isn't the same as trick shooting with a blind fold on, no? Surely you aren't just drawing and emptying a magazine at a target 10 yards downrange haphazardly?

The only other "unsighted" shooting I've seen is point-blank type drills from the holster which use your body as a reference point for a draw and very short range shooting with hand in contact with your chest... but you aren't doing this at targets 10 yards out...

[vliberatore]

In a defensive situation, I doubt that you'd be thinking of looking down the sights to perfectly hit your target. Your adreneline will be pumping and you're be in survive mode. This is sort of what I am trying to mimic. In a real-life situation, I doubt anyone has looked down the slide at the sights if their life was on the line.

As stated in a previous post, I can shoot and hit my target. If, from my posts, you don't understand what I am trying to accomplish, I don't know what to tell you.

[tbc]

^^ In a real-life situation, your targets are not going to be standing still. If you are trying to mimic a real-life scenario, shooting a fixed target in a range is not an answer IMO. Perhaps take some defensive training classes.

Just my two cents.

[9mmepiphany]

In a real-life situation, I doubt anyone has looked down the slide at the sights if their life was on the line.

Well, that has certainly been a popular argument over the years.

I gather that you haven't been either on the receiving end of gun fire or been close to firing a shot at someone else. Have you received training or even talked to folks who have been in that situation?

Most folks who have been there and made telling hits will tell you that they have either seen their sights (although they might not remember sighting) or can't recall either way. You'll seldom find anyone who remembers shooting without seeing their sights and making hits. I've had co-workers who do remember looking at the threat and wondering why they weren't going down when shot...until they remembered to look at their sights.

Remember that under stress, you'll default to your lowest level of training. If your lowest level is seeing your sights...you will.

[vliberatore]

Fair enough. I realize that trigger control/muscle memory need to be there to be a proficient no sight shooter. Don't get me wrong, I'm putting the time in and not searching for a "Holy Grail" answer that is going to make me an expert marksman. Just a tip or pointer from someone who is better at it than me to help me progress faster is all I am looking for.

Again

[MossbergMan]

Nicely Put.

Well, that has certainly been a popular argument over the years.

I gather that you haven't been either on the receiving end of gun fire or been close to firing a shot at someone else. Have you received training or even talked to folks who have been in that situation?

Most folks who have been there and made telling hits will tell you that they have either seen their sights (although they might not remember sighting) or can't recall either way. You'll seldom find anyone who remembers shooting without seeing their sights and making hits. I've had co-workers who do remember looking at the threat and wondering why they weren't going down when shot...until they remembered to look at their sights.

Remember that under stress, you'll default to your lowest level of training. (Where have I seen this statement before )
If your lowest level is seeing your sights...you will.

Amen. I have simular recounts of events involving actually scoring fight stopping hits...seeing the sights superimposed on their threat. Only Jim Cirillo stated he saw his sights clearly in his NYPD Stake Out encounters.

[USMC 82-86]

Again

Well I do a lot of the type shooting you are talking about. I do see the sights when shooting at 5 yards and beyond. While I do see the sights it is more a product of my arms being at full extension at those distances. When I am at 0-5 yards most of my shots are made with my arm in close to the body no sights used. I think of my shooting for defensive purposes with a handgun as I do for shooting my longbow.

I am not one who shoots his longbow using a point of the arrow reference or by string walking. I focus on the spot I want to hit, and bring the bow up to full draw and let the arrow go. This is a basic version of instinctive shooting. This method may also fall into the split vision/gap shooting method. By split vision or gap shooting I mean they use the hand position and tip of arrow as a reference point but still maintain a focus on the target. Now when I do this, I do see the arrow, and I also see my hand on the riser of the bow, but my main focus is a spot on the deer, hog, turkey or target. If you focus on the entire target you are more likely to miss the entire target or at the very least you risk making a bad hit.

The fact that you see your hand or any part of the sights is just a product of your periheral vision. Your focus must be fully concentrated on a spot and not the entire target. The next time you shoot focus on a very specific spot and when you reach full extension say at 5 yards press the trigger straight to the rear. You will probably be amazed how many times you will be very close to your spot.

I only used the archery reference to make the point that the longbow and, recurve are weapons that most often are used with no sighting system installed on the bow, and can be very effective even at distance. I have gone to ORANCO many times in chino and hit Elk, Bear and Buffalo size targets at 40-70 yards using this method. I saw one gentleman hit a turkey target at 45 yards 4 times in a row and was releasing the arrow as soon as he hit full draw.

I do this with my pistol shooting at 5,10,and 15 yards all the time. I will say that the majority of that time is at 7-10 yards. But again when I go to the range, I am usually the only person I see shooting using strong hand and weak hand shooting. I will usually run about 2 mags per hand. I always try to work on my weakest points most.

I think the fact you are practicing to shoot in this manner is a good thing. But to shoot without the sights coming into your field of view will probably be limited to very short distances, even when I shoot at say 3 yards with gun held low I still see the top of the gun even though it is well below my line of sight. I am sorry to go on like this, so in ending I would say to get better at this type of shooting, you must have not just target focus but a spot on the target. In other words think small focus point and let the brain make the adjustment.

[fiddletown]

Here's what Clint Smith had to say in the January/February 2008) American Handgunner about seeing the sights:

It's always argued that in a fight shooters will not look at their sights. I strongly agree -- if no one has ever taught them otherwise. To say that people don't, or won't, look at their sights is wrong. People have, they will in the future, and they'll hit the...target too. The correct alignment of the sights is a learnable skill. Is a textbook perfect sight picture available in every fight? Of course not....In fairness, the sights are only part of the issue -- the jerked on trigger doesn't improve anything.

[USMC 82-86]

Here's what Clint Smith had to say in the January/February 2008) American Handgunner about seeing the sights:

Yep, but I think the OP is asking about practice concerning instinctive shooting. Just a alternative style of shooting compared to traditional teachings. Most true point shooters will use the middle finger to press the trigger and use the index finger to point with, along side the slide. Hence the term point shooting.

I practice this myself minus the middle finger on the the trigger and index finger on the slide. It can be very effective if you practice enough.

[stylett9]

Get training for proper grip and stance. Aside from that someone i highly respect always tells me shoot slow and accurately. Work on your breathing. Shooting fast will come naturally when your muscle memory develops. Additionally, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire!!