Both Eyes Open

[forgiven]

Practice, practice, practice, practice....

[vliberatore]

Practice, practice, practice, practice....

Just like anything else that you want to succeed at. Off to the range tomorrow!

[MossbergMan]

Practice only makes permenent....PERFECT practice makes perfect. If you practice...crap for 20 years...you will become a Crap Master, nothing more.
One should not be surprized that shooting without the benefit of using the sights results in tighter groups than when one uses the sights. Of course that group may not be where you intened or needed it. Reason is simple. When you eliminate using the sights you have more "CPU" to concentrate on....TRIGGER CONTOL. When we add the element of visually referencing the sights we tend to think more about those than what we are doing with the trigger. Most shooters "ambush" the target as the sights move by it. That boys and girls is the primary cause of low left shooting (right handers) and low right with the southpaws. As I tell my clients: "trust the wooble". See your sights and think solely about your trigger contro. Let the shot off where it breaks, not where you make it break.
Learning to use the sights with both eyes open is not as hard as most folks make it. Train your brain to see what's important. To do this, start sighted in with your dominate eye only.....then open your other eye and puurrresssssss the trigger. Do this until you no longer have an eyesight "conflict" . The brain will then recognize the dominate eye information as the most important and allow both eyes open without seeing two sights or two targets...or both anymore.

[fiddletown]

[1] Stop "practicing." Practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Continuing to practice is not going to improve your performance until you figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do things right.

Practice makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong.

[2] Take some classes.

Instruction will help you understand what to practice and how to practice it. There is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees.

The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."


Before you can really except to shoot well without the use of sights, you'll want to shoot well with your sights. And with proper practice it's amazing how fast and effectively you can learn to shoot with a flash sight picture.

But trigger control is the starting point. No matter how you index on target -- with your sights or without your sights -- if you jerk the trigger, you will miss.

[tal3nt]

That perfect practice crap is getting increasing corny. I'm under the philosophy that constant practice is the only way to figure out what you are doing wrong. Of course you can have an instructor tell you, but most people will discover new techniques and realize what works & what does not. "Continuing to practice is not going to improve your performance until you figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do things right." But how do you "figure out" what you're doing wrong? Trial & error. I honestly can't imagine someone doing something wrong a hundred times without improving one bit. Matter of fact, I installed new headlights for my buddy yesterday. Halo & LED so there is some wiring involved. I've never done it before and my specialty is not in electrical engineering. There are two headlights on a car. We had no directions at our disposal. The first headlight took over an hour, the second one took 15 minutes.

[tal3nt]

And BTW, who is to say that the OP isn't already an excellent shot when using his sights...?

[vliberatore]

I shoot roughly 6" groups at 25yards with the sights if that helps your opinion of me. I am very new to no sight shooting. I figured it would be worth it to ask you all on CG for tips from people who have gone through it before. I do plan on taking a class when I can find time (currently play college baseball and am working on my MBA) so in the meantime I work on what I can at the range.

All I'm asking for is maybe a tip to help shorten the learning curve.

[tal3nt]

People here can be very critical..

But yeah, I guess the most obvious and reoccuring answer would be to practice. 6" @ 25 is really good.

[9mmepiphany]

"Continuing to practice is not going to improve your performance until you figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do things right." But how do you "figure out" what you're doing wrong? Trial & error. I honestly can't imagine someone doing something wrong a hundred times without improving one bit.

The most persistent faults I've seen in technique from folk who have never taken instruction:

1. Over-gripping
2. Compromised support hand contact
3. Trying to shoot while the sights are perfectly aligned on the target

These aren't things that are self-correcting through trail-n-error, because the solutions are counter-intuitive if you don't understand the dynamics of correct grip and trigger control.

If 6" at 25 yards is really good, how would you characterize 4" or 2" at that distance? I'm not saying it is not acceptable...more than acceptable for a new shooter...but how does it compare to with the expectation of a combat gun to hold 4" at 50 yards?

[tal3nt]

It was merely a compliment. But for your satisfaction, 4" would be extremely good, and 2" would be great. That 4" @ 50 yard stuff you speak of makes no sense to me.

[ICONIC]

Takes practice, I can do it with my AR. I still have issues doing it on handguns.

[fiddletown]

... how do you "figure out" what you're doing wrong? Trial & error. I honestly can't imagine someone doing something wrong a hundred times without improving one bit. ....

Maybe and maybe not. Mostly maybe not.

Occasionally someone will learn to do a physical task, like play an instrument, drive a race car or shoot, reasonably well by working things out for himself. But in general, people who manage to learn to do something really well have gotten instruction and coaching. It's all about how people learn physical things.

In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

(1) unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

(2) conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something, at least consistently, even though we know in our mind how to do it;

(3) conscious competence, we know how to do something and can do it properly consistently, but only if we think about what we're doing and concentrate on doing it properly; and

(4) unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively, on demand and without having to think about it.

To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. Then going from conscious competence to unconscious competence is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that, in the case of shooting, dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back.

If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence he will still need to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

Of course, it all depends on how well you want to be able to do something. Some of us strive to shoot well, reflexively, on demand. Our goal is unconscious competence, and good instruction is an important part of getting there.

[cruising7388]

Both eyes open doesn't necessarily mimic a gun fight any better than one eye, in such scenario both your eyes will be dead focused on the other guy with the gun shooting at you.

True, but with both eyes open your depth perception is functional and the scope of your peripheral vision is doubled. IMO, that's a significant plus that might be a life saver.

[9mmepiphany]

...4" would be extremely good, and 2" would be great. That 4" @ 50 yard stuff you speak of makes no sense to me.

The long held minimum standard of acceptable accuracy for a combat handgun is 4" at 50 yards...traditionally shot from the roll-over prone, but you could just as easily shoot it off a range bag.

If the minimum at 50 yards is 4", wouldn't that make the minimum acceptable accuracy at 25 yards be around 2"?

Even allowing for shooting from standing, as opposed to rested, acceptable at 25 yards would be around 3"

[wurger]

Some people can shoot with both eyes open, some can't. If I shoot with both eyes fully open I get two targets and two front sights. If I slightly squint one eye (right or left, doesn't matter), everything is good.