Both Eyes Open

[MossbergMan]

The point is that I improved.. on my own.

And the way I see it, it is USUALLY the especially challenged shooters that seek instruction.

Not knowing where you started or where you are now it's difficult for me to judge the validity of yoru point.
Any shooter not shooting as well as they would like to is challenged. The smart ones seek the knowledge and experince of a better shooter or instructor to shorten the learning courve.

You are a smart man, you learned from your mistake(s). But a wise man learns for the mistakes of others. We are all beginners at some point, why struggle for any amount of time when you could get on the right road right from the start?

I have yet to meet a female shooter that didn't get instruction....from someone. Guys for some reason seem to be learning resistent. "I'm a guy, I know how to shoot, I've been watching TV for years....."

Good luck in your future endeavors.

[vliberatore]

I learned and improved by reading CG threads in my spare time.

Thank you 9mmepiphany, I will be trying that next time out to the range.

I would imagine that my biggest hurdle is muscle memory. Just getting my body to remember the exact same position every time will be the biggest challenge. Yes, trigger control matters, but if shots are all over the place, then the problem is muscle memory, not trigger pull. If I had a good group, but all shots were off the same direction (i.e. jerking the trigger, pulling grip with fingertips, etc) then trigger pull would be the problem.

[tal3nt]

Thanks.

[9mmepiphany]

That's the definition of anecdotal evidence. Just because you shot a 1.1 inch group once using a specific gun and a specific ammo on a good day, doesn't have any bearing on what an 'acceptable' accuracy.

Heck, a world champion only claims to be able to shoot 3" groups consistently with production guns at 25 yards, and I'm pretty sure he shoots a heck of a lot more than 'acceptable'. http://www.doodieproject.com/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=512

It wasn't meant to prove what is acceptable, It was only meant as an illustration that I wasn't referring to shooting groups from a Ransom Rest.

I didn't shoot the group, Bruce Gray (former H&K and SIG factory team shooter) did, with a gun he was putting together for Mickey Fowler (4 time Bianchi Cup Champion). If you ask Ben Stoeger, I'm fairly confident that he would tell you that they are both more accurate shooters than he is.

[9mmepiphany]

Yes, trigger control matters, but if shots are all over the place, then the problem is muscle memory, not trigger pull. If I had a good group, but all shots were off the same direction (i.e. jerking the trigger, pulling grip with fingertips, etc) then trigger pull would be the problem.

I don't think you have the understanding of accuracy that you believe you do.

Managing the trigger correctly is the basis of all handgun accuracy. It is easier if you have a consistent platform...stance, arm placement, grip...but it is all less important than trigger control.

Jay Lim proved that on Top Shot with his obsolete Tea Cup grip

Learn the trigger first...it pays huge dividends

[fiddletown]

...And the way I see it, it is USUALLY the especially challenged shooters that seek instruction.

In my experience, it the shooters who strive to be as good as they can be who seek instruction.

[MossbergMan]

WORD!

I don't think you have the understanding of accuracy that you believe you do.

Managing the trigger correctly is the basis of all handgun accuracy. It is easier if you have a consistent platform...stance, arm placement, grip...but it is all less important than trigger control.

Jay Lim proved that on Top Shot with his obsolete Tea Cup grip

Learn the trigger first...it pays huge dividends

This is 100% correct and words to live by.
Fiddletown, that has been my experience too.

[vliberatore]

I don't think you have the understanding of accuracy that you believe you do.

Managing the trigger correctly is the basis of all handgun accuracy. It is easier if you have a consistent platform...stance, arm placement, grip...but it is all less important than trigger control.

Jay Lim proved that on Top Shot with his obsolete Tea Cup grip

Learn the trigger first...it pays huge dividends

I'm not sure what you mean by my "understanding of accuracy".

That's not what I said though. I wasn't saying that it isn't important. I was saying that, with the results that I saw, what I would imagine the issue to be. I can have the best trigger control on the planet but if I don't have the muscle memory to point my gun at the same point without using the sights, my trigger control won't mean dick.

[9mmepiphany]

The corollary is that you could have the best muscle memory on the planet, but without correct trigger control, you'd still pull your shot off target.

I never practice unsighted fire, but demo'd it for a client who asked about CQC a couple of weeks ago. What was funny was that my shots were nicely centered, but a bit low with the a M&P and a H&K P2000SK...all inside 2-3"...likely because I was also demonstrating using the support hand to protect the head/neck area. At longer distances, I can reliably hit an 8" steel plate with the gun extended in my strong hand, but I consider it a parlor trick...just like cutting a playing card in half.

[MossbergMan]

If the answer is "yes" read no further.

I'm not sure what you mean by my "understanding of accuracy".

That's not what I said though. I wasn't saying that it isn't important. I was saying that, with the results that I saw, what I would imagine the issue to be. I can have the best trigger control on the planet but if I don't have the muscle memory to point my gun at the same point without using the sights, my trigger control won't mean dick.

Question: If you aim, can you hit your mark? If so disregard the following and get a laser to assist in proper target indexing.

Vliberatore, not arguing with you, but without proprt trigger control how will you know if it's your "muscle memory" or crappy trigger work causing you to miss your mark? Your point shooting should be a byproduct of sighted shooting. A natural progression from one to the other....not the other way around. Once hitting with the sights you will have the muscle memory you seek. You can then you can wean yourself off relying on your sights for hits on close range targets.
Read "Your sights are training wheels" at the Warrior Talk forum.

Trigger Control, the Mother Fundamental. The foundation of all marksmanship begins with TC. I'd wager a fair amount of money that at least 80% or more misses are attributed to poor control of the trigger in the process of firing the shot.

[vliberatore]

That is absolutely true. Sorry if I came off as argumentative. Once I learned better trigger control, I saw huge gains in my accuracy (still have a ways to go before I'm where I would like to be).

Obviously you guys have more experience shooting than me and I'd like to thank you for all of your advice/input.

[USMC 82-86]

I think it is very important to have a solid foundation established in the fundamentals of shooting. Once you have that base to work from you will be proficient in which ever type of shooting you pursue. I very rarely use my sights when shooting out to 10 yards. When I say I rarely use the sights, I mean I don't worry about a picture perfect sight picture. I get a picture of the target clearly and I see the barrel and sights in the center of the target.

When shooting for defensive purposes, you don't need a perfect sight picture at distances out to 10 yards. If you are center of mass with the sights and have good trigger control, you will hit your mark all day.

If you want to shoot target style then you must switch focus to the front sight with the target becoming slightly fuzzy. When you are shooting at distance your eye can only focus on one object at a time if you are looking for precision. I can still use a target focus shooting style at 20 yards and get C.O.M. hits they just won't be precision hits.

I like to think that I look my bullet into the spot I want to hit, when I use the target focused method. You basically have to let the shot happen, I almost feel loose when I shoot this way.

If you are trying to make those precision shots that is a different game. You concentrate more on the breathing, the grip, the postion of the finger on the trigger being square to the target, and a crystal clear front sight and a slightly fuzzy target.

I do the same things as mentioned above every time I pull the trigger, with the exception of front sight focus depending on the type of shooting I am doing. I mentioned this to simply reinforce the importance of the fundamentals when shooting. I don't slap the trigger, or change my grip, or forget to breath, simply because I may be shooting with a target focused method versus taking a precision shot. The only thing that changes for me is the length of time to take the shot or the focus shifting from threat to front sight depending on the shot. The basics are always the basics and they are always a part of my shooting. I do shoot with both eyes open 98% of the time unless I am really trying to make a precision type of shot out past 10 yards. If it is not a precision shot, both eyes are open, even when shooting out past 20 yards. Dry fire practice is huge for your shooting accuracy and trigger discipline, they go hand in hand. Get good instruction and practice the things you learn on a daily basis and you will be good to go.

[Wicked Pete]

People are shooting with one eye closed?

Want you to know...sometimes I close both eyes (big caliber), especially when I know it's gonna hurt. Then I cry.

[USMC 82-86]

Want you to know...sometimes I close both eyes (big caliber), especially when I know it's gonna hurt. Then I cry.

I think I was next to you at the range today.

[Dizturbed One]

I have always shot with both eyes open since a child. My father told me that is the way to shoot when I was very young. I simply let my dominant eye focus on the sights, while the weak eye is still functioning peripherally, but not really engaged on anything in any way. However, it is still there, doing it's peripheral work.

I tell every new shooter to do it the same way, because if you use both of your eyes, you see twice as much, period. Closing one eye helps you mentally focus on the sight with the strong eye, it does not magically make that eye more able to focus. The fault there is a lack of mental discipline, having to struggle against focusing the weak eye simply because it is open.

I notice new shooters tend to not have much of a problem picking it up, only people that have shot before have a big problem adapting to this. My 10 year old son closed his weak eye the first time I took him out, and I asked him why. "Because that's how everyone does it" he replied. I told him "If you're ever in a situation that you really need to use a gun, you definitely need both of your eyes son." He shoots with both eyes open, and very well for a 10 year old I might add. He can put 2" groups down with an old lever action Henry .22 rifle while standing at 15 yards, with both eyes open. Edit: I might add that this rifle is very heavy for him.

I firmly believe it is simply because his mind is uncluttered with the usage of the "crutch" of using his weak side eyelid to make his primary eye focus well. Because the first time he shouldered a real rifle and used real sights, I pointed it out and he fixed it.

I would definitely practice "dry sighting" your weapon onto various targets even when not at the range. Eventually your eyes will become accustomed to focusing with only one while both eyes are actually open.