Do you compete, why not?

[Hans Gruber]

Kes (and others), if you shoot a production class (or single stack) you're not going against the guys with the $5k open guns. My stock P226 does just fine in Limited 10 or Production, a base 1911 is golder in single stack. At the deadwoodboys shoots there are just about everything, but it's all classed to the equipment.

Plan on 8am-3pm for a Saturday shoot. It's about an hour out to Piru.

One time costs:
Belt
Holster
Mag pouches for at least 5 mags
5+ mags

I usually take 250-300 rounds per shoot.

I do SCSA, IPSC, and Action Pistol with the Deadwood Boys in Piru - as much as I can. You're only a newb once. :-)

For the cost-conscious beginner I'd go one better and recommend shooting IDPA up in Piru (matches every other weekend on average). Then the requirements go down to:
Belt
Holster
Mag pouch for 2 mags
3 total mags
125 rounds of ammo
4-5 hours total (can shoot the whole IDPA match between 8:30 and 1:30 easily)

I just showed up alone one day back in April of last year. I haven't looked back since. It's completely changed me as a gun owner and athlete.

~Jack

[robcoe]

No I dont, because I am not a very good shot.

Working on it though.

[elsolo]

I started shooting IPSC (and similar) matches 10 years ago, I should have started earlier.
I was looking for something to do with the new 1911 that I just bought, other than the indoor range.

The first match I went to absolutely blew my mind; I never suspected that my skills were that bad, or that pistol-ninjas even existed. I felt compelled to keep at it until I no longer sucked so bad.

I haven't shot in the last three years due to life circumstances, but can't wait to get back to 4-6 matches/month.

[elSquid]

This makes me think of Jim Cirillio.

While I mean no disrespect to him at all (I like him and bought/read a great book from him).....he advanced similar arguments.

Background: He was a NYPD police officer who won a number of gunfights and wrote a book. In his book, he ridiculed action pistol shooting as building bad habits and having silly rules. In his book, he says that he was assessed procedural penalties at a match and left (furious) never to return.

I don't believe that's the entire story... I think he ridiculed 'new IPSC' in particular, because of some of the gamesmanship rules. He preferred the old "Jeff Cooper" way of doing things.

I think Cirillo was a fan of IDPA.

-- Michael

[Speedpower]

I tried it twice with the Corona Sportsman Club, I like it, but just haven't found time to go back again, but I'm hoping that I can go this Sunday.

http://www.coronasportsmensclub.com/cscforum/cmps_index.php?pageid=ts

[Steyrlp10]

Well, I'm teaching class in addition to competing, so for me, that's a continual learning experience -- which is a good thing for me to stay current. I always thought a good test of my knowledge was how well I could impart those facts on a student by sharing what has helped me succeed in pistol shooting.

If that person is having fun on the firing line and is enthused, then I feel that it was a good day

[Rudolf the Red]

Do vermin fear you too?

If I saw one, they would fear the Aguila Colibri ammo I have on hand.

[HCz]

I compete from time to time, but just like others, there are priorities I have to make, and competitions tend to get set back. During semesters, I really have to plan ahead to make time for competition. If it's a choice between work-related tasks and competition, priority goes to my work.

It also costs some money to do it, and right now, I'm on my last 500 rounds of 9mm, so have to get some more. I don't have time to reload, so have to buy ammo, and it does cost something. My regular target practice has been quite infrequent thanks to a lot of things in life and budget concerns.

On top of that, there are training classes that I'm interested in taking. So with limited time and resources, I gravitate towards training.

Every year, I try to make it to at least one of either IPSC/USPSA or IDPA competition. So far I've been doing about 1 per year. I've attended other competitions set up by ranges and clubs.

As for competition vs. tactical training, I'm more leaning towards tactical training.
1. Competition is definitely better(IPSC/IDPA) than standing at a square range and firing at a target. There is more you can do, and it is far more versatile. But this by no way implies that I would ignore target practices altogether.

2. However, competition does not mean I can forego tactical training. While there are elements that overlap between the two, they are certain differences too. I've had some training and competition scars, and concluded that occasional competition is fine, but I don't want to do it at the expense of what I learned in classes.

For example, when reloading, competition frown upon having your muzzle pointing somewhat upward. I don't like it, but their place, their rules, so when I do a game, I alter my reloading a bit. Then there is issue with cover/concealment. IDPA probably does it better, but not by much.

Interestingly enough, some people who started IPSC and IDPA and has been involved with training tend to shy away a bit.

Jeff Cooper wasn't too happy about how IPSC progressed over the years, and some of those who started IDPA(Vickers, Hackathorn) now tend stay away from it and opt for training. Someone mentioned Cirillo, and there is a stoy of using a ditch during competition. IIRC, even Cirillo wasn't too happy with how IPSC turned out to be.

Another thing that game boys tend to do is they think they are the top of the shooting world. While it is true that some technics were results of competition, it is not to say that all things about competition is good for tactical application. Yet I've seen and continuously see competitors talk as if it is the end of all things.

Adding to that flame is the fact that there is another extreme end which is tacticool ninjas. They completely ignore or downplay competition because it is not tactical. Then they get their butt kicked.

The balance of competition and training is something that needs to be there. One of people I know rarely participates in competition, but if he were to, a lot of competitors would be awestruck. Another person I know(from the same agency) participates in competitions and is really good at it. So there isn't one that is superior over the other, but as for us shooters, we need to strike a balance.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening, and quite honestly, I doubt it will ever come to any mutual appreciation of the other side. This issue is more or less on the levels of .45 vs 9mm, IPSC vs. IDPA, 1911 vs. Glock, and AR vs AK.

[Rudolf the Red]

On a side note, no one has ever shot a perfect score in Bullseye during competition. It is hard, no doubt. When I did it in Sacramento, it was 20 yard indoor.

You will shoot great in practice but suck in competition. Happens to everyone. It's a mindset as well as a skill. Anyone who mocks Bullseye has obviously never fired a round in competition.

I highly recommend the NRA Qualification Bullseye Course for newbs. Just try it.

[Excelsior]

I don't compete for the reasons mentioned. I compete primarily for how I feel after I compete. After spending 5-6 hours being totally aware (or at least attempting to be totally aware) of what one is doing, the feeling once one is done is amazing. I'm not talking about "concentrating" -- I am talking about being totally aware.

Anyway the afterwards feeling is amazing. It has to do with a flood of endorphins -- somewhat like one would feel after a good sexual experience.

[Gryff]

I'll offer another perspective:

I've trained with many instructors who advise against competing a lot in "gun games" if your genuine purpose is to train how you'll fight for the purpose of self-defense. While this opinion hasn't been universal, those holding to it seem to be among those with the most real world experience ... LE, Military, etc. who have been in actual shootings.

Disagree. This mentality would also hold that you should never shoot slow, precision fire at a static line range since that isn't how you would fight.

Competition is NOT combat training, and teaches some very bad things if you view it as such. But what it does do is act as a crucible (for those who take it seriously) that will help perfect weapon mechanics (draws, sight acquisition, transitions, reloads, malfunction recovery, etc.). It also is one of the few sources of being able to regularly include stress while using a firearm. But it's not training.

Nothing wrong with shooting competition. But if you carry a gun as part of your job or for self-defense, you need to balance it with real (and preferably good) tactical training.

[Axewound]

competed once a couple years ago and had a blast, but i moved to AZ and am hesitent cause to be honest i dont have anyone to go with

[Brian1979]

Those tactical cheerleaders who constantly preach how bad competition is just cant shoot period. They make excuses for how poorly they do and run back to taking classes from what I have seen.

The final word will come down to taking someone who claims to be all tactical and I will volunteer myself for being placed against them in any type of situation. You can make the tactical rules and tell me what those are and I can do them. What the tactical guy cant do is actually shoot fast while being accurate let alone get their gun out fast enough to fight with it so they loose.

Fundamentals will be gained and perfected in competition but tactics are nothing more then being instructed how to do something then doing it. For CCW I dont understand why these people think they need to learn how to clear a house with a team. If your job description is to do this then I get it but still the guys who can really shoot are competing to hone their gun handling skills.

We just had this conversation on another thread and some guy thought 1.70 second draws from concealment and placing one shot was fast. I think the tactical people get it in their head that there will always be cover available and they have to be constantly INSTRUCTED how to use it while people like me see value in actually shooting and gaining skills that are fundamentals.

Either way I would love to invite a tactical shooter out to shoot some day and if you want to run the course as if you are clearing a home go for it but if I get to go slower I bet you my A zone shots wont be an issue all day long. If you need to shoot fast then I will still come out on top with good paper hits. Point being that doing something slow and methodical is easy and doing it fast and accurate is very hard.

So keep hiding behind walls, slicing the pie, checking the world, and call yourself tactical but my bet is you just cant shoot and make excuses why competition is bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6eonFMH6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1X0rjMznz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8YeTNSC8s

Now in terms of competition I am still a newbie. I go every weekend and will strive to speed up but for tactics you call them and I will do them. My point is that they are really not the point. Learn to shoot and move, reload and move, and actually hit targets accurately but quickly. All of that takes a hell of alot more practice then having somebody who I paid $300 tell me how to hide behind cover. For ccw my butt is staying behind cover if there even is any but I know that I will at least be faster and more accurate then the gang banger of bad guy who just bought his gun off the street.

[spencerhut]

I did a 3-gun match last year for the first time. It was some of the most fun I've ever had with a weapon in my hand. Did fairly well, too - I was one of only a few non-LE / non-soldier participants. The top group had times in the 200-300 second range, and I was near the top of the middle group at ~556 seconds. (I was happy with my score, for aesthetic reasons, if nothing else. ) I'd love to do compete more, but there's really nothing in the Madera / Fresno area, so far as I know.

http://www.facebook.com/Motherloadpistolclub

We do quarterly 3-gun matches. Monthly USPSA style -not official USPSA- matches first Sunday of every month. Second Sunday is usually Steel Challenge.

Low pressure, friendly crowd.

[HighLander51]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE