Hiking sidearm - Bears Beware :)

[Beendare]

How do hardcast compare to FMJ? I've always thought the reason for hardcast was a cheaper alternative to FMJ, without the drawbacks both in speed and cleanliness of cast and swedged lead.

Also, what weight hardcast are you running? .

Well if its one thing we have learned over the last couple decades is that bullet design matters. The meplat of the hardcast bullets differentiates them over the smooth round nose FMJ. I think the hardcast totally change the dynamics of the old school thought that a pistol doesn't have the power to stop a large animal. These HC bullets are game changers.

If you think about it old school bullet design was essentially to impart the bullet energy into the subject for the concussive shock. Now they know that there are other factors more important.

A couple decades ago I used to do Hog depredation and had the opportunity to shoot many hogs at close range with a pistol. Most were .357 hollow points and later looking for something more effective a .44 mag- again with hollow points.

i had many of these hogs charge as thats what happens with dogs and hogs. One would think a close range .357 to the head and the charge would be over....I would say it was maybe a 25% success rate on those hog charges. I've had many hogs shot in the head 3x or more still on their feet. Autopsies revealed little damage below the hide. I've seen lesser cartridges not penetrate the shield. Intuitively I knew something wasn't right.

We know that a 1,000# grizzly bear can take a licking and keep on ticking. The only thing stopping an animal like that is a bullet that can penetrate to the point of the CNS...or bust through enough bones to break the animal down quickly. The mushrooming of a hollow point only inhibits that.

I've seen some crazy penetration by the hardcasts and solids including a bullet that went through a 2,000# water buffs skull, about 4' of his hump and then a through a 10" dia hardwood tree that was 20' behind him and we never did find that bullet. Put the bull down immediately too.

I run 300gr in my SW 629 classic, my buddy runs 200gr in his G20 10mm.

[Beendare]

Spray v firearm;
I know for a fact many of the 'repelled by firearm' incidents aren't reported.

Shoot a bear in self defense in Ak and report it....you may have wished you were mauled instead- grin. The paperwork and interrogations are crazy. Its no wonder many of these incidents are NOT reported. In some cases the muzzle blast repels them in the event of a miss or warning shot. Its one of those things that is impossible to measure, firearms v bears.

On the other hand every hiker carrying bear spray reports them....if they survive. Sort of skews the stats, eh?

[Socalman]

If you are just hiking in California, I would not worry about a firearm for bears. The Ca. black/brown bears can be deterred with pepper spray. If you are going to be in grizzly country then you need a big gun. As someone else said, count the rounds you shoot and save the last one for yourself. Unless you have a great aim at a grizzly moving at you at an alarmingly fast speed, chances are you just may piss him off, not stop him.

[Jimi Jah]

If I shot a bear here in California I'd probably get the death penalty from the Sierra Club.

[NapalmCheese]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record whenever this topic comes up. Anyone carrying a 10mm into big bear territory with the idea of protecting themselves from a charging bear on the attack is going to find out real quick and much too late that it was the wrong choice. Seeing a bear at the zoo vs. unexpectedly encountering a bear in its habitat that shows no fear of humans and with nothing between you and him is a very humbling experience. But hey, I guess 10mm is better than nothing.

I know a few ranchers in Wyoming, two of them live and work in grizzly territory (which is also where I hunt), the third less so.

One carries a .44 (6 inch I think?), the other a 10mm G20, and the third a Kimber .45 ACP.

The one with the 10mm was charged by a grizzly and decided to shoot it. After being shot the Grizzly took off into the bushes where it may or may not have died.

Fish and game questioned the rancher as to why he didn't use bear spray first as that is what they suggest doing.

Would the bear have run off if it were sprayed? Maybe. Would the bear have stopped dead in its tracks if it was shot in the same place with a .44? Nope. The only way to stop a bear in its tracks is to hit the CNS. A 10mm with hardcast will go through a bear skull just as well as a .44 with hardcast. Shooting a charging grizzly bear anywhere other than the CNS (even somewhere fatal like the heart or lungs) is similar to politely asking it to stop eating your kayak and then smacking it on the hind end to see what sort of reaction you get; maybe it'll run away, or maybe it will maul you.

The former statement holds true for polar bears as well, or at least the last time I was in polar bear territory the video I had to watch before going outside sure made it sound that way.

[Carcassonne]

Spray v firearm;
I know for a fact many of the 'repelled by firearm' incidents aren't reported.

Shoot a bear in self defense in Ak and report it....you may have wished you were mauled instead- grin. The paperwork and interrogations are crazy. Its no wonder many of these incidents are NOT reported. In some cases the muzzle blast repels them in the event of a miss or warning shot. Its one of those things that is impossible to measure, firearms v bears.

That is also why people who defend themselves with guns against other people never report it. I used a gun 3 different times, and never reported it.



.

[The Tiger]

The one with the 10mm was charged by a grizzly and decided to shoot it. After being shot the Grizzly took off into the bushes where it may or may not have died.

Fish and game questioned the rancher as to why he didn't use bear spray first as that is what they suggest doing.

Any additional details of that conversation?

[NapalmCheese]

Any additional details of that conversation?

Nope, just anecdotal from when I last talked about it with Mr. Rancher. He said he got the third degree from Game and Fish for not carrying and first using spray, but was not cited for any wildlife violations since he was shooting in self defense. It's been a few years since we last spoke, I'll ask him again if I remember the next time we converse.

Edit to add:
I believe grizzly bears were considered game animals at the time but heavily regulated, which would explain the 'third degree'.

Also, the last Game and Fish person I interacted with (a few months back) while in grizzly territory carried a pen, a pocket knife and fleece jacket. I guess he was not overly concerned about bears or criminal activity while validating our tags standing between three gut piles.

[The Tiger]

Thanks, just curious. I like to hear from those that have experienced a charge and or dealt with the aftermath. I've been lucky and never charged. I've been really close to a few bears and they showed a little less than a passing interest.

[NapalmCheese]

Thanks, just curious. I like to hear from those that have experienced a charge and or dealt with the aftermath. I've been lucky and never charged. I've been really close to a few bears and they showed a little less than a passing interest.

The only time I'd wished for something more substantial than a 7mm 140 grain ballistic tip is when I saw a sow and two yearlings stand up, sniff, and start walking towards me from 100 yards out in the pre dawn darkness as I walked to where I wanted to hunt deer. We (3 of us altogether) hiked back to the truck and came back later.

[The Tiger]

The only time I'd wished for something more substantial than a 7mm 140 grain ballistic tip is when I saw a sow and two yearlings stand up, sniff, and start walking towards me from 100 yards out in the pre dawn darkness as I walked to where I wanted to hunt deer. We (3 of us altogether) hiked back to the truck and came back later.

Yeah, I came across a black bear sow and two cubs in camp once, in Alaska BTW. I was walking to the port a john and I was halfway there. They were 100 feet to my side. My shotgun was in the campground. I had to think quick, either keep going to the port a john or go back to camp. I decided to play it cool and keep going, nice and easy. When I finished they were gone and I didn't see them again. I didn't make that mistake twice. As the mom starred me down the two cubs were curiously looking around popping their heads out from behind mom like "Hey mom can we play with him? Can we can we?"

Later that trip I had a grizzly sniff my tent in the early morning hours. The people that ran the lodge nearby told me not to camp there. I think my rule of never having food in camp probably helped but who knows. Maybe I was just lucky.

I have a few others but none are as exciting. Here is a funny one.

When I was 10 years old my sister poured kipper snack juice into the fire while backpacking through Yosemite. Latter that night I woke to a black bear sniffing the fire pit. I was 10 so I was really scared. I woke up my brother so he could see it too. We still laugh about it today. Stoopid sister.

[JTROKS]

Me and my hunting partner got chased by a cow moose. Believe me that's exciting enough.

[Beendare]

That is also why people who defend themselves with guns against other people never report it. I used a gun 3 different times, and never reported it..

As have I......thankfully I have only had one encounter with a gang of 2 legged bad guys and showing the weapon was enough to get them moving....funny how that works, eh? I doubt an aerosol can would have the same effect....grin

I usually don't bother packing a firearm while bowhunting or backpacking unless I'm in Grizz country. All of my encounters with blackies have been snapping jaws and/or false charges. Better to be low key here in Ca, We were bowhunting the Trinities many years ago and my buddy had a sidearm. We bumped into backpackers on the trail that must have been big antis as they smeared an concoction of tomato sauce and oatmeal on the hood of my buddies landcruiser that ate into the paint [someone left us a note with what they did and the lic plate] Sheriff wouldn't prosecute, folks were from Berkeley,Ca- shocking, eh?

[JTROKS]

I have shown and at a couple of times chambered a round, but that dang blue nose pitbull kept snarling at me. Pepper spray worked on that mean dog.

[Echidin]

I know a few ranchers in Wyoming, two of them live and work in grizzly territory (which is also where I hunt), the third less so.

One carries a .44 (6 inch I think?), the other a 10mm G20, and the third a Kimber .45 ACP.

The one with the 10mm was charged by a grizzly and decided to shoot it. After being shot the Grizzly took off into the bushes where it may or may not have died.

Fish and game questioned the rancher as to why he didn't use bear spray first as that is what they suggest doing.

Would the bear have run off if it were sprayed? Maybe. Would the bear have stopped dead in its tracks if it was shot in the same place with a .44? Nope. The only way to stop a bear in its tracks is to hit the CNS. A 10mm with hardcast will go through a bear skull just as well as a .44 with hardcast. Shooting a charging grizzly bear anywhere other than the CNS (even somewhere fatal like the heart or lungs) is similar to politely asking it to stop eating your kayak and then smacking it on the hind end to see what sort of reaction you get; maybe it'll run away, or maybe it will maul you.

The former statement holds true for polar bears as well, or at least the last time I was in polar bear territory the video I had to watch before going outside sure made it sound that way.

The brain is not the only area of the CNS that could potentially have caused the bear to go down. Though not an easy shot by any means, and especially when being chased by a bear, but the spinal column would be another potential target. I'm not a fan of either the 10mm or .44 mag for bear protection, but if I had only those two to choose from it would be the one that will have the larger projectile with more energy behind it to get thru the layers of adipose tissue and muscle to reach any part of the CNS. A well placed shot, or a hail marry as one is running away, that doesn't make it all the way through to the spinal column has the potential to fracture the spine. Also, important to keep in mind is grizzly bear range in size from 250-800+ lbs (Kodiaks have been weighed in at 1000-1200 lbs). depending on age, gender, location, availability of food, etc. I would be interested to know how many shots Mr. Rancher was able to get off and how many hits he connected. Since no body was recovered I can only assume the bear was wounded and either did not die immediately or may have even survived the encounter. It would be interesting to get more information from the rancher regarding that particular bears size. The 10mm is a respectable round and has its place, but I would still feel underpowered if carrying in big bear country and therefore, cannot advocate for its use under such situations at this time.