Fix The Site Or Shut It Down

[davidj]

I do not know how stable the backup site has been, if it goes down as much as the cg.net site.
If it is more stable-would it help if the traffic from this site be split up and put the classifieds on the cg.org site? I think most people who come to this site want to just use the classifieds.
I do not know if that would help and make this site more stable?
Not a tech person, just trying to think outside the box.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

I do not know how stable the backup site has been, if it goes down as much as the cg.net site.
If it is more stable-would it help if the traffic from this site be split up and put the classifieds on the cg.org site? I think most people who come to this site want to just use the classifieds.
I do not know if that would help and make this site more stable?
Not a tech person, just trying to think outside the box.

The problem is multi-fold. First, Kestryll has already acknowledged that .org needs work... once this site is fixed. Second, not 'everyone' in the membership has or can currently get a password for that site. Third, while it has a 'Marketplace,' I'm not sure the site, given it is intrinsically a 'backup' for when this site is down, can handle the traffic or the desires in terms of what people what to include in the posts. Bear in mind, it is a far more basic level of programming

That site, Calguns.org, doesn't 'go down' like this site. But, it was never intended to function at the level this one does. In short, trying to split the traffic would, I believe, simply amplify the level of effort required to maintain things.

Bear in mind that there have been several who HAVE tried listings there over the last year or so. I'm just not sure how 'successful' they're efforts have been given the above.

[davidj]

The problem is multi-fold. First, Kestryll has already acknowledged that .org needs work... once this site is fixed. Second, not 'everyone' in the membership has or can currently get a password for that site. Third, while it has a 'Marketplace,' I'm not sure the site, given it is intrinsically a 'backup' for when this site is down, can handle the traffic or the desires in terms of what people what to include in the posts. Bear in mind, it is a far more basic level of programming

That site, Calguns.org, doesn't 'go down' like this site. But, it was never intended to function at the level this one does. In short, trying to split the traffic would, I believe, simply amplify the level of effort required to maintain things.

Bear in mind that there have been several who HAVE tried listings there over the last year or so. I'm just not sure how 'successful' they're efforts have been given the above.

We are just assuming things, whether the actual problem has been identified on this site-I do not know. For the other site, I have never heard what kind of issues are over there, if it's major or just updating. Maybe it can handle just enough traffic for the classified section? Do not know. Would it help here to split the site into 2? Do not know. Someone/Kes, who is in the know about that site could maybe chime in and comment if it might be a possibility to do something there to improve things.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

We are just assuming things, whether the actual problem has been identified on this site-I do not know. For the other site, I have never heard what kind of issues are over there, if it's major or just updating. Maybe it can handle just enough traffic for the classified section? Do not know. Would it help here to split the site into 2? Do not know. Someone/Kes, who is in the know about that site could maybe chime in and comment if it might be a possibility to do something there to improve things.

Sigh.

I wasn't 'assuming' or 'guessing' about Kestryll saying the other site needs work. He posted on this site that he intends to spend time on that site once this one is fixed.

One of the primary issues for .org is that of obtaining a password. It's a well known complaint that many members don't have and can't get one as it requires a reply from Kestryll to make it happen. That means it adds to Kestryll's work level to even do that much. Now, imagine 'everyone' who wants to post a listing 'demanding' a password and 'everyone' who wants to reply to such a posting 'demanding' a password. Let's just say that, given what we do know, particularly that .org has ALWAYS been the 'backup site,' I am quite dubious that he'd want to go there.

[davidj]

Sigh.

I wasn't 'assuming' or 'guessing' about Kestryll saying the other site needs work. He posted on this site that he intends to spend time on that site once this one is fixed.

Sigh,
As I said, you are assuming what the actual problem is. No one has ever mentioned why we can not get accepted to that site, or why that it can not be used more robustly than it currently is. No one has stated what the problem is exactly as to why that is. Saying that it needs work does not identify the problem, maybe it's just funds. Point is that you do not know what the problem is either.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Sigh,
As I said, you are assuming what the actual problem is. No one has ever mentioned why we can not get accepted to that site, or why that it can not be used more robustly than it currently is. No one has stated what the problem is exactly as to why that is. Saying that it needs work does not identify the problem, maybe it's just funds. Point is that you do not know what the problem is either.

It's been talked about A LOT. Simply put, the chronic complaint is that they never got a response, meaning they don't receive approval. Does it really make a difference if the 'technical' problem is that Kestryll isn't getting the messages or if he's simply not responding or consistently allowing new members? If you can't get a password/approval, you can't get on in terms of posting. I can't help it if you haven't caught the discussions or don't remember them. (As an example, here's one from about a year ago.) Did you ever get approved or are you still waiting?

Registered about a week ago on that site, waiting to be approved. I hope it's not the same person who approves accounts on the CG.org site. I have been lurking for quite awhile also noticed quite a few CGN user names. It seems like the best alternative site.

If you want to start your own schtick of "I want Kestryll to respond to my idea," be my guest. But, you might want to actually spend some time over there and make yourself familiar with the previous discussions beforehand. Just remember, funding isn't always the answer.

Want to join the chorus that I don't know what I'm talking about and should just shut up as you'll only accept a response from Kestryll? Again, be my guest. I mean, I'm only on that site EVERY DAY and it's something that has also been noted on this site that there are several of us who are, keeping it viable so it can act as a backup. But, what do I know? You see, I'm simply quoting and/or paraphrasing what we've been told.

Insofar as 'someone' posting the exact problem on a public board... uh... gimme a break.

[davidj]

It's been talked about A LOT. Simply put, the chronic complaint is that they never got a response, meaning they don't receive approval. Does it really make a difference if the 'technical' problem is that Kestryll isn't getting the messages or if he's simply not responding or consistently allowing new members? If you can't get a password/approval, you can't get on in terms of posting. I can't help it if you haven't caught the discussions or don't remember them. (As an example, here's one from about a year ago.) Did you ever get approved or are you still waiting?



If you want to start your own schtick of "I want Kestryll to respond to my idea," be my guest. But, you might want to actually spend some time over there and make yourself familiar with the previous discussions beforehand. Just remember, funding isn't always the answer.

Want to join the chorus that I don't know what I'm talking about and should just shut up as you'll only accept a response from Kestryll? Again, be my guest. I mean, I'm only on that site EVERY DAY and it's something that has also been noted on this site that there are several of us who are, keeping it viable so it can act as a backup. But, what do I know? You see, I'm simply quoting and/or paraphrasing what we've been told.

Insofar as 'someone' posting the exact problem on a public board... uh... gimme a break.

Everyone knows what the Symptoms are, but there is no formal diagnosis for them. You still have no diagnosis either, even with all your rantings.
I can and will make comments as I see fit, you will not tell me what I can and cannot say. You should by now have gotten a clue that all your ramblings at times do not amount to a hill of beans, especially when you have nothing of substance to add to a discussion.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Everyone knows what the Symptoms are, but there is no formal diagnosis for them. You still have no diagnosis either, even with all your rantings.
I can and will make comments as I see fit, you will not tell me what I can and cannot say. You should by now have gotten a clue that all your ramblings at times do not amount to a hill of beans, especially when you have nothing of substance to add to a discussion.

Okay. You want a detailed analysis and explanation rather than a 'common sense' reply. You will note I NEVER said I had an 'answer' on that basis. I said that this perpetual 'talk to me' stuff is simply a 'distraction' for someone in Kestryll's position. Why? Because YOU aren't going to DO anything about the problem even if you have that analysis and explanation. Neither am I. You can call it 'ramblings' or you can accept the fact that Kestryll isn't likely to have time to respond to EVERY MEMBER who comes up with an 'idea,' particularly when that idea is inconsistent with how the site has been administered in the past and how it appears to be working now.

Part of the 'problem' I was also pointing out is that you have been waiting awhile for your own 'approval' to .org. Whether that plays into your 'idea' or not, who knows and who cares. The point is, you want a 'fix,' not just for this site, but for that site as well. Again, common sense and paying attention to what has already been posted by Kestryll, not me. Put it down as prioritization in terms of not only which site needs 'immediate' attention and which site has ALWAYS been the 'backup,' working, such as it does, at the level that it does. Don't think that adds to the discussion? Your choice. But, yelling, cursing, or telling me where to 'get off' hasn't got you any closer to a 'personal' response in the manner you deem 'necessary' - has it?

[davidj]

Okay. You want a detailed analysis and explanation rather than a 'common sense' reply. You will note I NEVER said I had an 'answer' on that basis. I said that this perpetual 'talk to me' stuff is simply a 'distraction' for someone in Kestryll's position. Why? Because YOU aren't going to DO anything about the problem even if you have that analysis and explanation. Neither am I. You can call it 'ramblings' or you can accept the fact that Kestryll isn't likely to have time to respond to EVERY MEMBER who comes up with an 'idea,' particularly when that idea is inconsistent with how the site has been administered in the past and how it appears to be working now.

Part of the 'problem' I was also pointing out is that you have been waiting awhile for your own 'approval' to .org. Whether that plays into your 'idea' or not, who knows and who cares. The point is, you want a 'fix,' not just for this site, but for that site as well. Again, common sense and paying attention to what has already been posted by Kestryll, not me. Put it down as prioritization in terms of not only which site needs 'immediate' attention and which site has ALWAYS been the 'backup,' working, such as it does, at the level that it does. Don't think that adds to the discussion? Your choice. But, yelling, cursing, or telling me where to 'get off' hasn't got you any closer to a 'personal' response in the manner you deem 'necessary' - has it?

Trap,
Normally you just ramble on in your posts, that is nothing new with you. But today-you are soo full of ****. Ramblings is one thing, making stuff up about me is another level of stupid.

Let me refresh your memory what my first post was.

"I do not know how stable the backup site has been, if it goes down as much as the cg.net site.
If it is more stable-would it help if the traffic from this site be split up and put the classifieds on the cg.org site? I think most people who come to this site want to just use the classifieds.
I do not know if that would help and make this site more stable?
Not a tech person, just trying to think outside the box."

It is a very simple question for, like- people who are in that tech field who could comment on-which YOU ARE NOT!
If that is a thought that maybe Kes had not thought about before, but thinks it's worth looking into, he would know-AND NOT YOU!

Trap, your 100,000 word salad posts has not provided one piece of info to what my post was about. Why you constantly have to post soo much dribble is beyond me.

[Imageview]

The actual problem has been identified. It’s database errors. Simply put the existing database has issues (super common with forums, because differing versions of forum software have bugs and quirks in how they store and retrieve data) that causes it to eventually error out and stop functioning normally. This is normal with forum transfers, which is why in the vast majority of cases old forum data is not migrated beyond certain points to new software. It’s too difficult to get it to a functional state. Starting with a fresh database would 100% solve the issue. 2 years ago that could have been a solution. It was a difficult solution back then, and a sizable subset of users opposed it making it even more difficult.

Here’s the problem with that approach now: in the intervening time period the market has changed. The thing to understand about forums is that a healthy forum needs to replace users at a steady rate. People lose interest and churn out. People die. People stop using the forum and if no new users join it becomes a ghost town. 2 years ago calguns had 2 key factors driving user growth: great search engine positioning and that it was far and away the best website to buy and sell firearms in California. Now those search engine links are gone and calguns is no longer the best place to buy or sell guns.

Starting fresh now without the data would cause some of the remaining user base to stop utilizing the site. With an active user base now in the hundreds, that would be bad. There would be potential for positive feelings of former users to return to the site over time, but that’s a gamble that gets worse every day. Every day that has passed since the site stopped functioning normally has made it worse.

If this were a real for profit business and I was advising kes in my professional capacity, what I would advise would be to launch a sequel product. A new forum without the database baggage this has, but that didn’t offend the “never one post lost” crowd. Then this site could be leveraged to promote the new site while allowing it to continue to slowly die. That being said a new forum would be stepping into a market with competition (albeit competition that most posting in this thread including myself do not like). It would not be an easy road and certainly not one I would want to invest my own money in.

[calif 15-22]

davidj there is no value engaging with the self appointed Calguns spokesperson.

Here is the latest from the man himself as posted above. I for one can truly respect the mountain of headaches and the seemingly overwhelming tasks it will take to get this site back, and hope it can be done. The rest of us are just speculating as to what is or is not being done behind the scenes.

You're right, there should have been more communication. It doesn’t excuse it but I’ve been buried with new responsibilities at work and frankly somewhat overwhelmed with trying to sort things out here.

The issue with the server is database related, there is something causing timeouts and failures. I have a hundred or more error log files on the server in the file manager and have numerous error emails.
The main issue is I have no knowledge of SQL databases and very limited familiarity with using the root access on this server.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere I was fortunate enough that for years on end we were hosted by Calgunner mcubed. While we did pay for the hosting an amazing benefit was his knowledge and expertise. I would usually find out about a problem when I was told ‘This happened, I fixed it so it’s all good’.
This meant I never had to learn the backend of the server which now leaves me stuck.

I’ve gone through the support system for the hosting company and while they have helped they also told me this is beyond their normal purview. I’d have liked for them to be able to help but I appreciate that they were honest and told me it was not within their expertise. The support representative said I would need to speak to a database administrator or analyst they weren’t sure which.

[calif 15-22]

The actual problem has been identified. It’s database errors. Simply put the existing database has issues (super common with forums, because differing versions of forum software have bugs and quirks in how they store and retrieve data) that causes it to eventually error out and stop functioning normally. This is normal with forum transfers, which is why in the vast majority of cases old forum data is not migrated beyond certain points to new software. It’s too difficult to get it to a functional state. Starting with a fresh database would 100% solve the issue. 2 years ago that could have been a solution. It was a difficult solution back then, and a sizable subset of users opposed it making it even more difficult.

Here’s the problem with that approach now: in the intervening time period the market has changed. The thing to understand about forums is that a healthy forum needs to replace users at a steady rate. People lose interest and churn out. People die. People stop using the forum and if no new users join it becomes a ghost town. 2 years ago calguns had 2 key factors driving user growth: great search engine positioning and that it was far and away the best website to buy and sell firearms in California. Now those search engine links are gone and calguns is no longer the best place to buy or sell guns.

Starting fresh now without the data would cause some of the remaining user base to stop utilizing the site. With an active user base now in the hundreds, that would be bad. There would be potential for positive feelings of former users to return to the site over time, but that’s a gamble that gets worse every day. Every day that has passed since the site stopped functioning normally has made it worse.

If this were a real for profit business and I was advising kes in my professional capacity, what I would advise would be to launch a sequel product. A new forum without the database baggage this has, but that didn’t offend the “never one post lost” crowd. Then this site could be leveraged to promote the new site while allowing it to continue to slowly die. That being said a new forum would be stepping into a market with competition (albeit competition that most posting in this thread including myself do not like). It would not be an easy road and certainly not one I would want to invest my own money in.

Imageview This is the BEST response I’ve read in all these threads. I for one 100% agree a new platform is needed. Yes the history would be lost, but in 5 years or less we would have a new data base of current relevant history. The others that want to remain on this site could stay and reminisce of days gone by.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Trap,
Normally you just ramble on in your posts, that is nothing new with you. But today-you are soo full of ****. Ramblings is one thing, making stuff up about me is another level of stupid.

Let me refresh your memory what my first post was.

"I do not know how stable the backup site has been, if it goes down as much as the cg.net site.
If it is more stable-would it help if the traffic from this site be split up and put the classifieds on the cg.org site? I think most people who come to this site want to just use the classifieds.
I do not know if that would help and make this site more stable?
Not a tech person, just trying to think outside the box."

It is a very simple question for, like- people who are in that tech field who could comment on-which YOU ARE NOT!
If that is a thought that maybe Kes had not thought about before, but thinks it's worth looking into, he would know-AND NOT YOU!

Trap, your 100,000 word salad posts has not provided one piece of info to what my post was about. Why you constantly have to post soo much dribble is beyond me.

Now we see wherein lies the problem and it's truly old and stale. You don't like me or my posts. Guess what? That's been an 'issue' for a number of members from my very first post and it's something which has been gone into again and again and again and again. If my rather brief replies to your posts, which are really no longer than your posts, is tantamount to "100,000 word salads" to you, it's indicative of the problem.

You don't know what 'field of work' I spent a career in and what I did in that field. Full stop. I've never given a detailed explanation, though I have alluded to it from time to time. You might take note that I acknowledged my computer programming background preceded the Internet, but my background in business management, including time devoted to 'distractions' from individuals who think their 'idea' is original and something those 'working on the problem' had NEVER thought of, but should stop what they're doing and look into it, is quite extensive.

Let me refresh your memory. The backup site, .org, is reasonably, but not completely stable. It is based on a more 'primitive' level of programming and does not, repeat, does NOT support all the niceties which current generations of Internet users expect and demand. It was ALWAYS intended as a backup to this one for 'emergencies' should this one go down. As I noted, if you go there and take a look, there is a "Marketplace" already on that site, but it only sees minimal use with minimal results. Want it to be something different? That's never seemed to be the intent or the purpose for .org.

Kestryll has already told us, a number of times, that the problem here seems to be tied to the database, as per Post #199...

“I just wish there was some sort of communication from admin on anything server related.“

You're right, there should have been more communication. It doesn’t excuse it but I’ve been buried with new responsibilities at work and frankly somewhat overwhelmed with trying to sort things out here.

The issue with the server is database related, there is something causing timeouts and failures. I have a hundred or more error log files on the server in the file manager and have numerous error emails.
The main issue is I have no knowledge of SQL databases and very limited familiarity with using the root access on this server.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere I was fortunate enough that for years on end we were hosted by Calgunner mcubed. While we did pay for the hosting an amazing benefit was his knowledge and expertise. I would usually find out about a problem when I was told ‘This happened, I fixed it so it’s all good’.
This meant I never had to learn the backend of the server which now leaves me stuck.

I’ve gone through the support system for the hosting company and while they have helped they also told me this is beyond their normal purview. I’d have liked for them to be able to help but I appreciate that they were honest and told me it was not within their expertise. The support representative said I would need to speak to a database administrator or analyst they weren’t sure which.

In other words, your premise is that Kestryll and all the host engineers have possibly NEVER considered using the backup site as alternative or turning it into a 'player' for a good part of the site's membership. Uh... yeah.

We've also seen posts from Corbin Dallas that Kestryll has 'invited him in' to help, but he too is overwhelmed at work and 'too busy' to dedicate the time necessary to work through the problem at the moment. Want another link since I'm simply paraphrasing what has already been posted? Working the problem and passing that along to Kestryll is different than simply making posts or 'pushing a button,' even in the age of the Internet. But, you want them both to pay attention to your idea and give you a personal response. I mean, they could NEVER have thought about or considered it already, right?

What I did was give you a reply, based on your own admitted lack of experience with .org vs. my daily use of it, and because you don't care for me, you deem it ramblings. Okay. But, it still doesn't give you the answer you desire and that 'splitting' of the site is something which was already broached by another site owner wanting access behind the curtain and who has desired to 'take control' of the marketplace, leaving 'other content' to this one, in his desire to be... ahem... 'helpful.' We see what 'response' he's received, right?

So, again, bear in mind that my responses are distillations of responses we've already seen; i.e., they are not necessarily from me. Want something different than what we already know? Join the club, but realize we're not likely to get it anytime soon.

[davidj]

davidj there is no value engaging with the self appointed Calguns spokesperson.

Here is the latest from the man himself as posted above. I for one can truly respect the mountain of headaches and the seemingly overwhelming tasks it will take to get this site back, and hope it can be done. The rest of us are just speculating as to what is or is not being done behind the scenes.

I am fully up on all the public info/issues about this site, and the issues with Kes.
I posed a straight forward question, could the CG.org be reconfigured to just be a classified section of CalGuns, something like Armslist. If it helps stabilize this site by not having that amount of traffic here is my thinking, I do not know-that is why I am posing the question.

[Imageview]

I am fully up on all the public info/issues about this site, and the issues with Kes.
I posed a straight forward question, could the CG.org be reconfigured to just be a classified section of CalGuns, something like Armslist. If it helps stabilize this site by not having that amount of traffic here is my thinking, I do not know-that is why I am posing the question.

Reducing the traffic here would likely make it more "stable" in that it would likely crash less because less errors would be triggered. That being said it would not solve the issues and would have other issues regarding participation. Essentially a similar but more limited version of something I proposed a few posts back.