Stripped Receiver--Safe Handling Demo?

[lorax3]

Given these definitions does that mean a Glock 19 frame is considered a long gun by DOJ?

As noted above the "long gun" definition only applies for purposes of the Safe Handling Demonstration. This language was written by the CA legislature (SB 683 - 2013) and not the CA DOJ. (At least not directly by the DOJ although they may have been asked)

As far as how the DOJ views what is a "long gun" vs "handgun" for purposes of the DROS I think the answer is still "We don't know" and "it varies"

[JeffM]

interesting. they are specifically not stating that it is a rifle or shotgun. as such, does that help/hurt us when trying to take a long gun DROSed receiver and trying to build a pistol with it?

That definition of "long gun" technically only applies to PC 26860 for the safe handling demonstration requirement. There has been a lot of discussion over the years regarding DROSing receivers to be built later as handguns. I'm not sure if this new law changes any of that, but hopefully this thread will stay fairly on track regarding the topic of the safe handling demo for stripped receivers.

[San Jose Gun Trader]

I spoke with Compliance this morning (took me a minute to recover from the shock of someone actually answering the phone) and when I asked about the safe handling requirement with reference to stripped lower receivers, the girl laughed and basically told me they didn't know. Then she gave me the instruction that some of the rest of you have posted that we use a gun that is similar to what the lower receiver would be built into for the SHD.
As we are a small shop, I asked her what we are supposed to do if we don't have the specific gun in stock. We don't have the funds to carry one of every potential configuration just for the purpose of doing a SHD. She talked with a Field Rep and he said that we could pull up a picture of an AR (or whatever it may be) online and have the customer just walk us through the various steps verbally. I was also told caliber doesn't matter, so if you had a cheap .22lr S-A that would also suffice for the demonstration.
I also asked what kind of documentation requirements there would be for using a demo gun vs. picture, etc. She said that it's totally up to us if we want to indicate on the SHD form what type of gun was used for the SHD but there is no requirement. So it sounds like you can do whatever you have to to demonstrate the "safety" of an individual to handle the gun in question, but they don't require any kind of documentation of how the SHD was done.
I'm going to guess that after a few inspections they are going to realize the error of this line of thinking and there will likely be more requirements for proving the SHD was done with a correct type of firearm and in the correct manner. Brace yourselves, friends.
Also, I asked if they could send me some type of written documentation indicating that this was what we had discussed and outlining their direction on the matter... no surprise they said no.

[ugimports]

They'll never give a written response to a phone conversation. But if you mail them a letter asking for confirmation of said bullet points they will respond.. Now that "official" response might very well be to consult an attorney, but there's a slight chance hell will freeze over and you'll get something better in writing.

Also, I doubt during inspection they'll notice an error in their ways... No auditor is looking at the "type" of firearm and then looking at the SHD affidavit and going to ask "Exactly how did you do this demo?". They have way more serious things to write us up on, such as missing documentation, signage, perhaps missing firearms, released to early, etc..

I will use the feedback you received as a follow-up to a written correspondence I have pending if I get any sort of substantial reply..

[kemasa]

I heard a slightly different view. What I heard was that you have to do the demo with a similar firearm, that you can't just use a firearm with the same type of action. An AR has to be done with another AR. If you don't have such a firearm, then you can't do the demo and you can't do the transfer.

Currently there is nothing to prove, other than the statement on the form, that the demo was done with the correct firearm or even done at all. They might look more closely at receivers though.

The question is what is the view of the front line people vs. the high ups.

[Silverone858]

If I could throw my iron into the fire,
would 1911 frames be able to be drosed now? Sarco is selling RIA 1911 frames for just over 100$. Would you have to show that they come from a rostered RIA pistol?

[ugimports]

According to DOJ DES agents if that RIA 1911 frame can be used to build a roster compliant 1911 from RIA then yes. I don't know what proof is required - all I got was the response to my Glock 19 question.

[ugimports]

Keep us updated Ugi on the letter. Interesting twist.

Well...they called me back... I called bob back and left a message...I tried to convince him to respond in email or by snail mail..we'll see..

sounds like they will only want to respond by phone, of course.. we'll see when I finally talk to him what he says and what he's willing to write down.

[kemasa]

Record the call for quality control purposes.

[acespawnshop]

We just had a long discussion about this issue at the shop. We were wondering if the demo can be done using a "similar" firearm from a video? What if we did this scenario I make a 30 second video featuring myself and I do the following

Hi my name is Chris my instructor number is XXXXXX, and today I have in front of me an incomplete AR receiver and a completed AR15 style rifle with a fixed magazine and lock already installed on it. Here is how you remove the lock and load a dummy round into the magazine... so on and so forth. Now the customer would only see the video and not actually demo the removal of the lock and loading and unloading and put lock back on. But would something like this work?

Heres why I ask. We are a small pawn shop and do not regularly stock AR15's and AK47's because typically we wouldn't make much money off them anyhow and the larger chain stores can usually offer better prices so we choose to not try and compete with their prices.

Or does this not meet the requirement that seems to be impossible to do since we usually wouldn't have a "similar" rifle for sale to do the demo on.

Or does similar mean any semi-auto rifle? Would that work? Can we use pictures to show the steps one would follow for the safety demo? I'm just trying to think outside the box here and see if there is any way we can go about doing these things the most correct way possible.

[ugimports]

Record the call for quality control purposes.

Damn should have saw this sooner, though BOb did say he will email me.. I will post his official response when received. However, in summary:

1) DOJ views ALL stripped lowers as long guns, they don't give a crap that ATF calls a receiver a receiver. 2 different entities blah blah.. 58 DAs will dictate

2) Lower receivers that have "pistol" marked on them are not viewed as long guns - I asked why - he said "because that's what we say..." -- I asked for PC -- "you're not going to find it"

3) We get requests about this all the time - calguns people are yahoos and loonies and always wrong

4) Any AR pistol in California without "pistol" marked on the lower is an SBR, prepared to have a DA prosecute - again regardless of ATF, regardless of PC, the DA may hose you until case law proves otherwise

So... in the email reply I expect to receive, knowing he isn't a lawyer, he's basically saying all receivers are long guns, building them into a pistol is and SBR.

With my completely non-lawyer experience I think this means:
1) You can start DROSing stripped receivers as pistol frames (if you are under the belief and will defend your existing AR pistol is not an SBR)
2) Can build those into roster exempt pistols - (bolt action, single shot, etc..)
3) pick up said stripped receivers and do SHD with a comparable bolt action SSE pistol that you already own or that your FFL has available

Thoughts from the rest of folks?

BTW: I have no knowledge of Calguns Foundation or any of the pro-gun 2A attorneys are already looking at this (probably are) and if they have an opinion either way at this point of how defensible a build would be.

[ugimports]

We just had a long discussion about this issue at the shop. We were wondering if the demo can be done using a "similar" firearm from a video? What if we did this scenario I make a 30 second video featuring myself and I do the following

Hi my name is Chris my instructor number is XXXXXX, and today I have in front of me an incomplete AR receiver and a completed AR15 style rifle with a fixed magazine and lock already installed on it. Here is how you remove the lock and load a dummy round into the magazine... so on and so forth. Now the customer would only see the video and not actually demo the removal of the lock and loading and unloading and put lock back on. But would something like this work?

Heres why I ask. We are a small pawn shop and do not regularly stock AR15's and AK47's because typically we wouldn't make much money off them anyhow and the larger chain stores can usually offer better prices so we choose to not try and compete with their prices.

Or does this not meet the requirement that seems to be impossible to do since we usually wouldn't have a "similar" rifle for sale to do the demo on.

Or does similar mean any semi-auto rifle? Would that work? Can we use pictures to show the steps one would follow for the safety demo? I'm just trying to think outside the box here and see if there is any way we can go about doing these things the most correct way possible.

All good questions with unknown answers at this time. I'd start by using "report an issue" to try to get some initial feedback. I think I'm waiting on a similar response right now.

[CSACANNONEER]

Damn should have saw this sooner, though BOb did say he will email me.. I will post his official response when received. However, in summary:

1) DOJ views ALL stripped lowers as long guns, they don't give a crap that ATF calls a receiver a receiver. 2 different entities blah blah.. 58 DAs will dictate

2) Lower receivers that have "pistol" marked on them are not viewed as long guns - I asked why - he said "because that's what we say..." -- I asked for PC -- "you're not going to find it"

3) We get requests about this all the time - calguns people are yahoos and loonies and always wrong

4) Any AR pistol in California without "pistol" marked on the lower is an SBR, prepared to have a DA prosecute - again regardless of ATF, regardless of PC, the DA may hose you until case law proves otherwise

So... in the email reply I expect to receive, knowing he isn't a lawyer, he's basically saying all receivers are long guns, building them into a pistol is and SBR.

With my completely non-lawyer experience I think this means:
1) You can start DROSing stripped receivers as pistol frames (if you are under the belief and will defend your existing AR pistol is not an SBR)
2) Can build those into roster exempt pistols - (bolt action, single shot, etc..)
3) pick up said stripped receivers and do SHD with a comparable bolt action SSE pistol that you already own or that your FFL has available

Thoughts from the rest of folks?

BTW: I have no knowledge of Calguns Foundation or any of the pro-gun 2A attorneys are already looking at this (probably are) and if they have an opinion either way at this point of how defensible a build would be.

There are tens of thousands of commercially manufactured ans sold AR pistols in Ca which are not marked "pistol". There are plenty of other commercially manufactured handguns made on receivers that are also used to make rifles which are not marked "pistol" either. I love how he stated that this is how it is but you won't find a law to support our stance.

[ugimports]

There are tens of thousands of commercially manufactured ans sold AR pistols in Ca which are not marked "pistol". There are plenty of other commercially manufactured handguns made on receivers that are also used to make rifles which are not marked "pistol" either. I love how he stated that this is how it is but you won't find a law to support our stance.

agreed...as long as the opinion of long gun receivers SHD remains to use a similar make / model I think this will hold up as being good to go.

[kemasa]

The customer needs to actually do the demo, as you sign under penalty of perjury on the affidavit. It also says the same make and model, which is a problem to even use another AR.

It seems to me that legal action is going to be required since otherwise receivers/frames can not really be transferred legally.