Delayed DROS/Delivery?

[kemasa]

I agree with the PITA for the FFL part!! It does make a sale though, and that could be worth it. I agreed that your method would be better if the buyer agrees.

[EBR Works]

Part of this was that the buyer wanted to pay by cash. He doesn't like credit cards.

How is it a PITA? The buyer calls me when he's back in town and I submit the DROS. Yes, the DROS screen will have to be filled in manually, but that's 30 seconds. End result, happy client.

Now, if he were to never call or come back, then what?

[kemasa]

The reason that it seems to be a PITA to be is that you have to get all the information, hold on to it, wait for a phone call, find the information, manually enter all the information, etc. I guess you are fast if you can enter all the info for the DROS in 30 seconds.

As long as you have the money and it is marked as no refunds or at least that you get to keep a fair amount, there is no problem with the customer never calling or returning as you have your profit.

[EBR Works]

Re-opening this thread because of an additional question:

On the day the buyer signs the DROS worksheet for submission on a future date, he completes the 4473 and does sig and cert date even though the DROS submission may not be done for awhile. Is there any requirement for the cert date and nics/DROS submission date to be the same?

[BannedinBritain]

Nope...the only constraint you have is the cert date and the re-cert date on the 4473 cannot exceed 30 days...and the DROS date cannot be less than 10 days from the re-cert date.

[EBR Works]

the only constraint you have is the cert date and the re-cert date on the 4473 cannot exceed 30 days

Where is this limitation stated?

[BannedinBritain]

My mistake...the DROS date and the re-cert date cannot be more than 30 or less than 10.

[EBR Works]

So, let's take a hypothetical scenario for an SOT:

Buyer lives several hundred miles from SOT's location and would like to make only two trips to that location. Buyer comes to SOT's location, fondles and pays for their AOW, SOT & buyer complete the form 4, they complete a 4473 and buyer certifies the 4473 with the current date. SOT fills out a DROS worksheet only, which the buyer & SOT sign. The form 4 is submitted to ATF and the wait is several months. Upon receipt back of the approved form 4, the DROS is submitted and the submission date/time/DROS number is placed on the DROS worksheet. This same submission date and info is entered on the 4473. The buyer returns after 10 days, but within 30 days of the DROS submission, signs the DROS form, re-certifies the 4473 and takes delivery of his AOW.

Acceptable procedure?

[ke6guj]

looks fine to me, but I'd suggest talking to the ATF reps at SHOT next month about it.

There's also this FAQ that talks about the 30-day rule regarding NICS checks (which the CA DROS satisfies). even talkis about delayed deliveries, http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brad...ery-nics-check . I just dont see if you are required to start the NICS/DROS check when the customer initially certifies the 4473.

[EBR Works]

Yep, no mention of timing at all in that FAQ, typical clear as mud. SHOT discussion with the ATF drones it will be.....

[ke6guj]

now, there is this little tidbit. No NICS check is required when you transfer an NFA firearm

TRANSFER OF A NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT FIREARM TO A CORPORATION OR
OTHER LEGAL ENTITY
ATF has been increasingly asked questions about the procedures for the transfer of a National Firearms Act (NFA) firearm to a corporation or other legal entity, such as a trust, that is not a Federal firearms licensee (FFL).
When transferring a firearm to a corporation or legal entity you must use an ATF Form 4 Application for Tax Paid Transfer of a Firearm.
The FFL will identify the corporation or other entity on the Form 4 application by the legal name as the transferee. No individual name, such as the name of the president of the corporation, shall be included in identifying the transferee.
The Articles of Incorporation or other documentation establishing the legal entity must be included with the Form 4 application. The documentation must identify a point of contact for the corporation or other entity and must be sufficient for ATF to establish the legitimacy of the existence of the corporation or other entity.
If the firearm being transferred is a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device, an officer or director of the corporation or other entity must complete item 15 on the reverse side of the Form 4.
Items 13, 14, 16, and 17 of the Form 4 do not require completion for a transfer to a corporation or other entity nor is the submission of ATF F 5330.20, Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B), required.

Procedure after approval
Approved NFA transfers are exempt from the NICS background check. So, when the FFL arranges for the disposition of the NFA firearm to a representative of the corporation or other entity, only the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, must be completed by the representative of the corporation or other entity.

All other recordkeeping requirements of the Gun Control Act must be met..

http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf

Now, AFAIK, CA law would still require the DROS

[ke6guj]

hmm, does a DROS actually expire, other than the fact that as a NICS substitute it is normally only good for 30-days?

this is in the FAQ<

Is there a maximum time frame after submission of the DROS information during which a firearms dealer may release a firearm
Yes. If a firearm purchaser does not take physical possession of the firearm within 30 days of submission of the DROS information, the dealer must cancel the sale and, if the firearm was a handgun, send the DOJ a cancellation form for that transaction. If the purchaser still wants to take possession of the firearm, the entire DROS process must be completed including payment of DROS fees.

(PC section 12071(b))

top

24. If a handgun purchase transaction is delayed by the DOJ, how does it affect the delivery within 30-days restriction?
The 30-day delivery restriction begins upon notification from the DOJ that the delay has been lifted and that the dealer is authorized to deliver the handgun. The firearms dealer must retain all notifications and correspondence.

so if you look in 12071(b), I only see this requirement,

12071(b)(7) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises the following warnings in block letters not less than one inch in height:
(E) "FEDERAL REGULATIONS PROVIDE THAT IF YOU DO NOT TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM THAT YOU ARE ACQUIRING OWNERSHIP OF WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER YOU COMPLETE THE INITIAL BACKGROUND CHECK PAPERWORK, THEN YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE BACKGROUND CHECK PROCESS A SECOND TIME IN ORDER TO TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THAT FIREARM."

I don't see anything that says that the DROS itself expires. If there is no federal requirement for a background check, is it a violation if you deliver it after the DROS is 30-days old?

[EBR Works]

I guess this is good to go. Thanks for the feedback guys.

[ke6guj]

I just posted this in the new CGF lawsuit thread;http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=514592

interesting little tidbit:
"shotgun-based" AOWs like the Super Shorty are considered unconvetional pistols in CA and would therefore be exempt from the 10-day wait after the Form 4 was approved.


27540
No dealer, whether or not acting pursuant to Chapter 5
(commencing with Section 28050), shall deliver a firearm to a person,
as follows:
(a) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after
notice by the department pursuant to Section 28220, within 10 days of
the submission to the department of any correction to the
application, or within 10 days of the submission to the department of
any fee required pursuant to Section 28225, whichever is later.
(b) Unless unloaded and securely wrapped or unloaded and in a
locked container.
(c) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the
firearm presents clear evidence of the person's identity and age to
the dealer.
(d) Whenever the dealer is notified by the Department of Justice
that the person is prohibited by state or federal law from
possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm.
(e) (1) Commencing April 1, 1994, and until January 1, 2003, no
handgun shall be delivered unless the purchaser, transferee, or
person being loaned the firearm presents to the dealer a basic
firearms safety certificate.
(2) Commencing January 1, 2003, no handgun shall be delivered
unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the handgun
presents a handgun safety certificate to the dealer.
(f) No handgun shall be delivered whenever the dealer is notified
by the Department of Justice that within the preceding 30-day period
the purchaser has made another application to purchase a handgun and
that the previous application to purchase involved none of the
entities specified in subdivision (b) of Section 27535.





27740
Section 27540 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
transfer of a firearm regulated pursuant to any of the following
statutes, if the sale, delivery, or transfer of that firearm is
conducted in accordance with the applicable provisions of the
statute:
(a) Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 18710) of Division 5 of
Title 2, relating to destructive devices and explosives.
(b) Section 24410, relating to cane guns, and the exemptions in
Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Title 2, as they relate
to cane guns.
(c) Section 24510, relating to firearms that are not immediately
recognizable as firearms, and the exemptions in Chapter 1 (commencing
with Section 17700) of Title 2, as they relate to firearms that are
not immediately recognizable as firearms.
(d) Sections 24610 and 24680, relating to undetectable firearms,
and the exemptions in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of
Title 2, as they relate to undetectable firearms.
(e) Section 24710, relating to wallet guns, and the exemptions in
Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Title 2, as they relate
to wallet guns.
(f) Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 30500) of Division 10,
relating to assault weapons.
(g) Section 31500, relating to unconventional pistols, and the
exemptions in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Title 2,
as they relate to unconventional pistols.
(h) Sections 33215 to 33225, inclusive, relating to short-barreled
rifles and short-barreled shotguns, and the exemptions in Chapter 1
(commencing with Section 17700) of Title 2, as they relate to
short-barreled rifles and short-barreled shotguns.




and the old code, as far as I can tell,

12078(o) Section 12071 and subdivisions (c),(d), and paragraph (1) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of firearms regulated pursuant to Section 12020, Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 12200), or Chapter 2.3 (commencing with Section 12275), if the delivery, sale, or transfer is conducted in accordance with the applicable provisions of Section 12020, Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 12200), or Chapter 2.3 (commencing with Section 12275).


that could make getting a "shotgun-based" AOW a one-stop trip instead of a 2-3 stop deal.

[EBR Works]

So based upon that, a customer could do the form 4 process by mail. Once the form 4 is approved, they would come to the SOTs location, fill out a 4473, do the DROS and take the AOW home the same day or would they skip DROS entirely?