Straw sale..

[drogo]

When you point people to a sign in writing, it tends to defuse a lot of situations.

[Cokebottle]

When you point people to a sign in writing, it tends to defuse a lot of situations.

There's nothing to defuse.
You simply say "I am not comfortable moving forward with this sale, have a good day"

If they start acting like an idiot, then you say "And you wonder why I won't sell you a gun?"

When they escalate, inform them that if they do not leave you will be calling the police.

[kemasa]

My wife bought a gun she had been wanting for some time. My boss paid for half of it as kind of a bonus on his company card and had them hold it for me (he knew she wanted a stainless Sig and we he saw one he grabbed it and let me know). When I came in with her, she DROSd it and I paid the other 50% of the balance.

As was said, it is not illegal. Who pays for a firearm is not the issue, it is who is actually going to get the firearm, so who pays can be a big warning sign. Often it can be a straw purchase, but it is just part of the puzzle and how people act and what their story is also plays a big role. For example, if two people walk in and want to both buy the same rifle and one person pays for it all, this would not make sense as a straw purchase since both are having a background check, it is cheaper for one person to DROS both firearms, so unless there is something strange going on, who pays means nothing. In other cases it means a lot.

I have offered to buy/pay for a friend before at parallax tactical and was denied. Good on them. They did allow me to buy a gift certificate and gift it to my friend outside to complete the transaction. Keeps them clean and legal and I had no problem doing it that way. He dros'd it so I didn't care either way. His gun.

No, not good for them. If they really thought that it was a straw purchase they allowed it to happen as they still knew exactly what was going on, so it is just playing games. Either they should have allowed it or they should have stopped it. If you had pulled out the cash and they refused, but then you both went to the parking lot and you both came back and your friend suddenly had the cash, it is still the same thing.

[quarterscalelegends]

Interesting thread. I was wondering though... Say myself and my wife both have our HSC cards and neither one of us are felons. Now, if i just reciently purchased a hand gun last week, and found another one i just HAD to have and did not want to wait another 30 days before I can do my 10 day wait. Can my wife purchase the gun now? We both shoot all our firearms.

[jeep7081]

delete

[kemasa]

Interesting thread. I was wondering though... Say myself and my wife both have our HSC cards and neither one of us are felons. Now, if i just reciently purchased a hand gun last week, and found another one i just HAD to have and did not want to wait another 30 days before I can do my 10 day wait. Can my wife purchase the gun now? We both shoot all our firearms.

If the firearm is actually being purchased for you and she is not the actual purchaser, then it would be a straw purchase. She can buy it as a gift to give to you and that would not be a straw purchase. I would doubt that anything would be done about it if she did purchase it since neither of you are prohibited, but that is not what you are asking.

It is not a requirement that the person be a felon in order to be a straw purchase.

[jeep7081]

It is not illegal. However the FFL has a duty to question it. I would ask the wife, "Are you buying this firearm because your boss or husband are prohibited and they can't?" She answers no. I ask, "So this gun is actually for you and you are answering yes you are the transferee on question 11.a. and realize it is a crime if you really are buying it for them?" If she answers yes the gun is for her, then I have done my duty.

The funny thing is I had a customer come in a couple Sundays back. He was looking at a Rock Island 1911. He says he will be back. He comes back with this woman. She wants to do buy it. I am thinking that is cool, but of course my straw puchase spider senses are off the chart. So I do the HSC and she passes. Then I just had a feeling I needed to ask some more questions before I started the DROS and screwed myself out of $25.

"So how do you want to pay?"

She says, "Well however he wants to pay."

I said, "Is this gun for you or for him."

"Well it is for me."

I reply, "So why is he buying it? Is this gun really for him and you are just buying it for him because he is prohibited?"

Her answer, "Yes."

"Well then I can't sell you the gun. You just tried to conduct a straw purchase which is illegal and you just about committed a crime."

At this she clearly gets uncomfortable and I don't think she understood what the guy was getting her into.

I made her pay for the HSC since I already gave her the test and filled out the card. At least I made $10 on their little stunt.

It is touchy. I do usually go to the same places who know me and my previous job. If someone asked my wife that I might get a little offended. I always pay for everything when my wife and I go out. Since day one, and even after we married. Although, the account is joint. I usually walk up and pay the tab, etc. Guy thing I guess. So, I know my wife's reply would be, "I never pay for anything, my husband always pays". Then a muffle under her breath "That's why I married him"

But, I agree. To avoid offending someone, best to watch and make sure all your "elements" are in place. Because, I am that guy who shows the wife which are probably best for her. Let her decide, then I go pay.

[BannedinBritain]

Straw purchase...in ATF's own words:

A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check, uses a proxy buyer who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. It is highly illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.

Husband and wife who are not prohibited are NOT committing a straw purchase under any circumstance.

[monk]

No, not good for them. If they really thought that it was a straw purchase they allowed it to happen as they still knew exactly what was going on, so it is just playing games. Either they should have allowed it or they should have stopped it. If you had pulled out the cash and they refused, but then you both went to the parking lot and you both came back and your friend suddenly had the cash, it is still the same thing.

I disagree. If one person got money from someone else and went to buy it, he/she would need to DROS. Therefor, THEY would get the background check, not the straw buyer. Makes perfect sense to me.

[kemasa]

Take a look at the 4473, both the question and the instructions:

11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on
this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the
firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer,
the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for
Question 11.a.) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s)
for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed
to question 11.b.

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form,
you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm
for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g.,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm
raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are
legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL
TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a
firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the
firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm
and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer
the firearm to Mr. Jones.

Note that it does not say anything about a prohibited person.

[kemasa]

I disagree. If one person got money from someone else and went to buy it, he/she would need to DROS. Therefor, THEY would get the background check, not the straw buyer. Makes perfect sense to me.

Huh? Read what was said in the above case. The shop would not allow the transfer to occur because of who paid, but then allowed the people to go outside and exchange the money (which the shop would either know, should know, or should suspect) and then allowed the transfer to occur. Basically just saying that they did not want to see the money transfer, but the problem is that if they know about it and it is unacceptable, then it does not matter where the money is exchanged. Meaning, either it is acceptable to exchange the money in the shop or it is completely unacceptable.

[quarterscalelegends]

yes, but it does not say anything about married couples either. I think that is a totally different scenario. Both the husband and wife collect guns. Both buy them and shoot them, but in their minds there are always a couple firearms that belong to each other.

[kemasa]

It does not make an exception for married couples, so it would apply. In CA there is only the concept of one person owning a firearm. Under Federal law, the firearm is also only transferred to one person.

While it might make sense, the law does not have to make sense.

Under your concept, the spouse of a prohibited person could never own a firearm, even if they kept it locked up and away from the prohibited spouse as the firearm would always belong to each other.

[quarterscalelegends]

But when you are married everything is 50/50 owned...

interesting discussion.

[kemasa]

But when you are married everything is 50/50 owned...

Not true. Property owned before the marriage can still be separate. Inherited property/money is separate. A vehicle can be in only one person's name, property can be in only one person's name.