Thinking about an 03FFL...

[mariodesmo]

[Josh3239]

Don't forget one of the best things about the 03 FFL, discounts at retailers like Ratworx, Spike's, Midway USA, Brownells, Grafs, etc

First however, I'd like to hear from those who have an 03FFL doing C&R transactions, how their experiences/transactions have gone being a California resident, and what they think about the whole thing. I’m also trying to understand the benefits of having an 03FFL, with or without the CA DOJ COE.

I have both a C&R and a COE. In only one month I purchased two handguns, nothing special about that. The only C&R purchase was a M1 Garand purchased from an FFL out of state, I scanned my 03 and emailed it to him and he sent the Garand right to my door. I mostly use the 03 for the discounts at online retailers.

Assuming I had a 03FFL and CA DOJ COE:
My understanding is that with an 03FFL and CA DOJ COE I could purchase a C&R in or out of state, and if from out of state, either bring back into California with me then register it, or have a piece shipped to a local California 01FFL for DROS, but no 10 day wait.

A C&R means you can cash and carry outside of the state of California for all C&R firearms. Physically inside the state of California you can cash and carry only C&R rifles (from non-dealers), C&R handguns most go through an FFL. The C&R/COE combo removes the 10 day wait period on any C&R you purchase through or from a dealer and the 1 handgun per day for all handguns, not just C&R handguns.

1- I like to travel around the western states and take a few road trip vacations each year. And I assume with an 03FFL, I could purchase a piece if I were to find a deal while out of state, and take immediate possession if allowed locally.

Correct, you take immediate possession.

2- I also understand I could purchase from an out of state C&R seller, and have it shipped to a California 01FFL for transfer and DROS, but the 10 day waiting period could be waived.

Only handguns must go through an FFL. C&R rifles in this instance could be shipped to your door. With the COE the 10 day wait is waived.

3- Would in-California C&R purchases still need to go through a 01FFL and DROS, but no waiting period.

Again, only handguns would require the transfer dealer. With the COE no waiting period and unlimited handguns per month.

4- Without the CA DOJ COE, and only a 03FFL, I would not have the 10 day waiting period exemption of course, but I assume I could purchase from out of state C&R sellers and either bring them back with me in person and register them, or have them shipped to a local 01FFL for DROS. Is that correct?

If you purchase physically out of state and it is a rifle you just bring it back with you, if it is a handgun I do believe you have to send in the registration form and a check. No FFL necessary.

5- What benefit is there (or not) from having a 03FFL only, when purchasing a C&R in California?

Inside of California, all mail order rifles regardless of the seller's state of residency goes straight to your door. No FFL necessary. The downside to carrying an 03 but no COE is any C&R you purchase from a dealer or transfer through a dealer requires waiting 10 days.

6- Lastly, what inspections/audits could I expect to have with the 03FFL, and with a CA DOJ COE?

The COE is literally just a certificate that states you have passed a background check. That is all it is. The 03 FFL can potentially be audited by the ATF however that is extremely rare. In the event that it does happen, my understanding is the ATF must make an appointment with you at your convenience, either at your home or at their office. I believe you just have to bring your boundbook and you C&Rs that you purchased using you 03.

[mariodesmo]

Thanks for the info!

[mariodesmo]

Okay, I've sent in my request to the ATF for an 03FFL application package. Once it arrives, I'll proceed. I will also eventually submit for a CA COE.
I was surprised to learn after reading the application for the FFL that no finger prints are required. I somehow thought they were, in addition for the CA COE.
Since my interest is in 30's/40's/50's vintage Colt's, Winchesters, and S&W's, I think this will work out just fine!

Thanks for all the info.

[ke6guj]

c&r handguns do not need a 01 ffl to purchase and to my understanding can be shipped to the door also,you just have to print the doj handgun form ,fill it out and mail it in with a 19 buck check....

CADOJ is of the opinion that C&R FFLs can not receive C&R handguns directly to their door. Since you aren't a dealer, and the seller isn't either, you violate 12072(d) if you don't use a CA dealer to facilitate the transfer.

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

there is no C&R FFL exemption to 12072(d) for C&R handguns when you are physically in CA.

[stitchnicklas]

still does not sound like that to me,mostly conjecture .
03ffl is a license,add in the coe and that does ___________________________??

i put a question over to bwiese on this ,so that is what the blanks for.but i am pretty sure there are combo exemptions here and there for certain things.my mother lives in havasu so i could have a handgun delivered there and her ship my gun from me to me again____________?? California laws are meant to be vague and hard to interpret so that you will either screw your self or get nothing,or pay extra money for what should have been a cheap handgun from sog.

we really do need some one to make up a 03ffl handbook for California so we can figure these things out for sure.

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and i deleted my comment immediately after i made for a reason,i did not have the question right and my statement could have been fud,therefore i deleted it until i received a clear logic from another member--->___________ .

[Mssr. Eleganté]

still does not sound like that to me,mostly conjecture .

[ke6guj]

still does not sound like that to me,mostly conjecture .
03ffl is a license,add in the coe and that does ___________________________??

not sure what all the _________'s mean. the 03FFL license and the COE do not mean that you have a "dealer's license".

i put a question over to bwiese on this ,so that is what the blanks for.but i am pretty sure there are combo exemptions here and there for certain things.my mother lives in havasu so i could have a handgun delivered there and her ship my gun from me to me again____________?? California laws are meant to be vague and hard to interpret so that you will either screw your self or get nothing,or pay extra money for what should have been a cheap handgun from sog.

not sure how you could have firearms shipped to your mom, unless she was an 03FFL. I don't think you can have her address set up as an alternate shipping address.

But the second part, where you do an interstate intrafamily transfer of a C&R handgun when you are an 03FFL does bring up a cool possibility. Since CA allows for intrafamily handgun transfers without needing to use a CA dealer to facilitate the transfer, but that federal law requires us to use a CA dealer to do the transfer to satisy federal law, a C&R handgun, or any age, should be able to transfered directly to a CA 03FFL from a out-of-state grandparent, parent, child, or grandchild, and comply with both federal and state law. CA law would require to file the intrafamily/op-law form within the requred time frame, but it would be legal to do so.

we really do need some one to make up a 03ffl handbook for California so we can figure these things out for sure.

I would not disagree with this.

and i deleted my comment immediately after i made for a reason,i did not have the question right and my statement could have been fud,therefore i deleted it until i received a clear logic from another member--->___________ .

and since I started replying to you before you deleted it, but forgot to finish up my post, I ended up posting after you had deleted. But since the info was important enough for others to see, I did not delete after I realized you had deleted your post.

[Cokebottle]

There's definite tradeoffs.
To me, the 10 day wait is not a big deal, and unless you have a COE, you get that anyways.
C&R long guns are cash and carry for anyone on a PPT... and all handguns newer than 1898 have to go through a dealer for transfer.

There are advantages, two legal, two commercial:

1 - Long guns can be shipped directly to your home, even interstate.
2 - When you go out of state, you can purchase C&R long guns OR handguns and bring them home. Handguns must be reported ($19).
3 - Dealer discounts
4 - CMP!

There are disadvantages:

1 - You have to maintain a bound book like a dealer, however, unlike a dealer, when you allow your license to expire, there is no requirement to send the book in to the ATF... you may destroy it. Many 03's intentionally allow their FFL to expire every few years and then apply again the following year, which allows them to begin with a fresh book, and all guns in their existing collection are now off the books.
2 - Even though C&R long guns are cash and carry, EVERY C&R purchase or disposal must be logged in your bound book... even those transfers that take place at a dealer. Since C&Rs are cash and carry, some non-C&R holders may be reluctant to provide you with their address and driver's license information for a gun that they are selling to you.
3 - You are subject to ATF audits. The 03 has an advantage over a dealer. For a dealer, agents may enter the business and perform the audit without notice at any time during the "hours open to the public" listed on the application. As an 03, you do not have to allow agents access to your home or entire collection.... When notified of an audit, you may schedule an appointment at the nearest ATF field office. Take your bound book and the guns logged in it to the office and do the audit there. However, this can still be a hassle since the ATF "works" during working hours. If you're a 9-5er 5 days a week, this means taking a vacation day. For those working 9-80, it means hoping that the ATF can accommodate the audit on your weekday off.
4 - You do have to send a copy of your completed application to your CLEO, be it the County Sheriff, or your local Chief of Police. Not a big deal in most jurisdictions, but it could draw unwanted attention in a small town that is not particularly 2A friendly.


Adding the COE to the 03 adds a few more advantages:

1 - You may purchase more than 1 handgun from dealer stock every 30 days.
2 - There is no 10 day waiting period for ANY C&R purchased from dealer stock, FFL, or PTP transfer.
3 - If the CGF lawsuit against AB962 is unsuccessful, you will still be able to purchase handgun ammo online after Feb 2011 (assuming you can find a dealer who recognizes the exemption and is willing to ship).

There are no real disadvantages of adding the COE over the 03FFL disadvantages, other than the initial cost (about $80 for the Livescan plus $22 application fee), the $22 annual renewal, and the fact that the application process puts you more "on the DOJ radar" with both DOJ and FBI background checks.
The 03FFL application itself has no real background checks that are any more in-depth than the standard DROS checks.... I've never heard of anyone being denied an 03 by the ATF.

The COE by itself is worthless to "Joe Public". It is required of gun shop employees, and probably some other job related applications (primarily thinking of security work), but without the 03FFL, none of the above 3 advantages apply.

[stitchnicklas]

the_______________________? or question spots that i am waiting on and will edit when i receive a confirmation.

if i do have to have a c&R gun shipped i have a local dealer that only charges 35 dollars including dros which seems very cheap.....

[mariodesmo]

Here a few more questions that I'm thinking about...

Suppose I find a C&R handgun and purchase via phone or web, from another state.

The C&R handgun is requried to be shipped to a CA 01FFL, right?

But obviosuly the C&R handgun is not on the CA DOJ Roster.
Would a CFLC number still be required for shipment?

(I think the answer is yes to both).

[stitchnicklas]

good question..........

[Josh3239]

The C&R handgun does have to be shipping to an 01 FFL. C&Rs are exempt from the roster per PC 12132 (g). I do believe all lisenced firearm dealers shipping to CA require a CFLC letter. Unlisenced, 03s and 06 are exempt.

Here a few more questions that I'm thinking about...

Suppose I find a C&R handgun and purchase via phone or web, from another state.

The C&R handgun is requried to be shipped to a CA 01FFL, right?

But obviosuly the C&R handgun is not on the CA DOJ Roster.
Would a CFLC number still be required for shipment?

(I think the answer is yes to both).

[stitchnicklas]

again some of the brilliants legal minds here on calguns need to design a 03ffl handbook for california

[geeknow]

When notified of an audit, you may schedule an appointment at the nearest ATF field office. Take your bound book and the guns logged in it to the office and do the audit there.

Pretty sure that they DO NOT want you to bring your collection in to their office for an audit....