Gun Locks

[tenpercentfirearms]

Yes, the sentence, you do not get the humor in it, but clearly it shows that you made a false statement when you said you did not ignore it.

I know you were following the other thread, so why should I go and look it up? I also gave you the PC code section, but since it does not help with your view, it is best for you to ignore it (but you don't ignore things, you just don't understand and not respond, aka ignoring it).

Why do you feel that I should spoon feed you?

LOL. Do you honestly cruise Calguns now for the sole reason to catch me in my lies? Your quest to be right by proving me wrong is bordering an unhealthy obsession.

Here is the crazy thing. I have 7262 posts! Sorry if I missed your point in the thread you are referring to or simply scrolled through three pages of something and missed it. You could remind me, but you would rather make yourself feel superior because I can't remember and you do. Congratulations. You win again!

You are right, you don't have to spoon feed me, because I am not playing your silly little game. You have debased yourself to the level of arguing whether I am really ignoring you or not. That is fairly pathetic.

If you want to remind me of the thread you are talking about, then post a link. I would love to actually go discuss whatever it is your vaguely alluding to. If not, I am not going to bother to engage you any further in this rudimentary fashion.

If you want to add this to your "I got Wes" wall or make another notch on your keyboard or whatever it is you do to keep track, go for it. You are the only one keeping count. Honestly, I am not going to respond to any more of your silliness in this thread or any other threads as this back and forth with you has even tired me out and I know the people that want to have rational discussion in the FFL forums probably don't even bother because your personal vendetta mucks up just about every thread.

[kemasa]

So vain Wes. I am glad that you admit to your lies and that you can be caught, but then you go onto your fantasy. It is pretty easy to catch you in your lies because of what you say. The fact is that you should not be able to be caught in a lie because you should not lie.

Your statements are funny too. You have 7262 posts, as if that means something. How many are active TODAY? Oh, that drops the number greatly and shows your statement to be a joke.

I am not arguing as to whether you are ignoring me or not, just that you are ignoring what harms your claims and that you lied when you said that you were not ignoring that, but you have to resort to personal attacks, rather than the facts.

[tenpercentfirearms]

So vain Wes. I am glad that you admit to your lies and that you can be caught, but then you go onto your fantasy. It is pretty easy to catch you in your lies because of what you say.

Your statements are funny too. You have 7262 posts, as if that means something. How many are active TODAY? Oh, that drops the number greatly and shows your statement to be a joke.

I am not arguing as to whether you are ignoring me or not, just that you are ignoring what harms your claims and that you lied when you said that you were not ignoring that, but you have to resort to personal attacks, rather than the facts.

Blah, blah, blah.

I already responded to 12076.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3209217&postcount=8

I didn't really think you were bringing that up again as I already squashed that back in October 2009. Now you are arguing that my 7263 posts isn't relevant because if you look at the number of posts active today, it isn't as many. Dude, you have lost it. Can you get any more petty?

Anyway, why don't you make a new thread if you want to keep bringing up old news and let's let this thread get back to gun locks. Of course you can't. I know you are going to post again. You always do.

Seriously Ken, why don't you take a Calguns break for a while. Or maybe even just a tenpercentfirearms break. Your obsession isn't healthy.

You clearly have lost your grip on reality with these petty arguments and seriously, I don't want to drag down this forum with it anymore. If you want to respond to your PC 12076 debate, start a new thread. Or just go re-read what was already hashed out. Like it is going to make a difference.

I dare you not to respond to this. We all know you can't help it. Prove me right. Respond. Or go make a new thread and prove me wrong. We know which way you will choose. You have a sickness. You can't control yourself.

I guess I will have to be the one to stop engaging you. Good bye Ken.

[dachan]

I know the people that want to have rational discussion in the FFL forums probably don't even bother because your personal vendetta mucks up just about every thread.

Mods:
How about another Specialty Forum - Kemasa vs. Tenpercentfirearms

If that's not possible, maybe pistols at dawn.

[kemasa]

You ignored the same date, so no, you did not "squash" anything, except in your own mind.

You are good with the personal attacks though, how about you not doing that anymore? Perhaps, given time, you will get older, wiser and grow up.

Yes, I am sure that you would prefer to say anything you want and not get called on it.

[halifax]

Mods:
How about another Specialty Forum - Kemasa vs. Tenpercentfirearms

If that's not possible, maybe pistols at dawn.

There is one already that is not being used...the Private FFL's Forum.

[rbetts]

It appears that Kemasa has a hard on for Wes. Best taken elsewhere as there really is no value in it.

[kemasa]

Sorry, but I do not have a "hard on" for Wes and that is just an immature, personal attack, which is not appropriate. I do not like those who promote questionable/illegal activities, especially on a public forum. I also don't care for those who lie, including false accusations, and personal attacks and name calling.

I do not want to see FFLs get shutdown, as there are few enough currently. If you want more limited choices, then promote doing questionable things and see how many more FFLs you can get closed, as well as more negative publicity for the firearms industry.

So, what exactly would you like to see happen?

[Gunhacker]

The BATF does not consider C&R FFLs to be licensed when it comes to firearms in many ways. For example, the transfer of multiple handguns must be reported, even to a C&R FFL.

According to the BATF attorney that I talked to, he views the law to say that the FFL must provide the lock or safe (he did not say who must pay for it), but that the buyer could not bring in a lock and if the buyer had a safe, that did not count since the FFL did not provide it.

You could read that the FFL must provide safe storage, which could mean provide a location for said safe storage.

The BATF has a problem in that they did not publish the requirements, as required and as they said.

It seems to me in reading the Federal laws regarding the transfer of firearms that the BATF only has two classifications when it comes to conducting transfers... you are either a licensed or non licensed person.

The type of firearms that can be transferred by a licensed dealer, importer, collector, etc.. is yet another matter.

While not a dealer's license, having a 03 C&R does bestow certain privileges that an unlicensed person does not have, as far as C&R firearm transactions are concerned.

As stated in the BATF letter posted, "This new section makes it generally unlawful for any licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person, other than another licensee".

So, being an FFL licensee that blurb makes it sound like I should be able to transact a C&R handgun transfer with a California 01 FFL dealer, sans the lock requirement at the federal level, which would only leave having to comply with the CA staute, where a Gun Safe Affidavit, instead of a lock, should suffice.

[ugimports]

I was giving away locks when no lock was supplied with a firearm. During the audit, I was told that I had to attach a copy of the receipt for the lock to the DROS for any lock I supplied. Basically, the only time a copy of a receipt is not needed is when the lock comes with the firearm. In that case, I was told to enter the make and model in the comments section; i.e., OEM LOCK - SIG. Now I have buyers enter their name on a pre-printed receipt ($1) in their handwritting for each lock I give away and keep it with the DROS.


The lock has to come with the firearm to qualify for PC12088.1 (a). That's why if you are the buyer and you bring the lock, give it to the seller before you enter the building.

I just got a call back from DOJ. They told me it was perfectly acceptable for me to give away locks when the firearm was not provided with one. So the guy I spoke with didn't feel that the lock had to come with the firearm to qualify for PC12088.1(a). Likewise, I didn't have to write OEM on anything. He recommended the following:

1) On DROS comment section, write make/model of lock (I already do this)
2) On any receipt I provide (if I provide one, not required) write down the lock info and note "Free of Charge" for price.
^^ the bit here about the receipt is because I told the DOJ person that I don't always print one out if the customer did everything through my website and all they came in for was the paperwork process. I assumed they printed their own receipt at home.

I explicitly mentioned I was giving away Project Childsafe locks received from my local PD and he said a lot of dealers do the same. He told me to just make sure I don't sell them! Which I agreed with and our call was concluded. I forgot to bring up the point of trading locks, but it seems moot. I see no reason after the customer leaves why we can't trade back locks since everything would be documented properly and after that point the gun lock requirement has already been met there's no reason I can't trade the lock with them.

By the way, if you're giving away Project Childsafe locks then that pre-printed receipt of $1 (whether paid or not) means you're violating something (what I don't know) since the locks are not meant for re-sale.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I just got a call back from DOJ. They told me it was perfectly acceptable for me to give away locks when the firearm was not provided with one. So the guy I spoke with didn't feel that the lock had to come with the firearm to qualify for PC12088.1(a). Likewise, I didn't have to write OEM on anything. He recommended the following:

1) On DROS comment section, write make/model of lock (I already do this)
2) On any receipt I provide (if I provide one, not required) write down the lock info and note "Free of Charge" for price.
^^ the bit here about the receipt is because I told the DOJ person that I don't always print one out if the customer did everything through my website and all they came in for was the paperwork process. I assumed they printed their own receipt at home.

I explicitly mentioned I was giving away Project Childsafe locks received from my local PD and he said a lot of dealers do the same. He told me to just make sure I don't sell them! Which I agreed with and our call was concluded. I forgot to bring up the point of trading locks, but it seems moot. I see no reason after the customer leaves why we can't trade back locks since everything would be documented properly and after that point the gun lock requirement has already been met there's no reason I can't trade the lock with them.

By the way, if you're giving away Project Childsafe locks then that pre-printed receipt of $1 (whether paid or not) means you're violating something (what I don't know) since the locks are not meant for re-sale.

Selling them isn't a crime. Just Project Childsafe won't like it. Too bad.

[Mug]

Here's my recommendations:...
2) Bring a CA approved lock with any firearm you are selling through PPT. If you, as the seller, walk into the store with the lock accompanying the firearm, there is no question the transaction will be in compliance with PC12088.1 (a).

Regarding #2: I'm going to do a PPT soon and I have a CA DOJ approved lock NIB still in the original package. It's a Master Lock 107DSPT and is listed as certified for the pistol I'm selling on the CA DOJ web site.

I have three questions:

1. I understand bringing in my lock will satisfy PC12088.1(a), but can I take the lock with me after the PPT paperwork is done or do I have to leave it?

2. Can I sell my lock to the buyer and provide a receipt to him within 30 days of the PPT?

3. If we trade locks, then the buyer would have to purchase it from the FFL once the approval comes in unless it was a free lock that I was given in trade, is this correct?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Regarding #2: I'm going to do a PPT soon and I have a CA DOJ approved lock NIB still in the original package. It's a Master Lock 107DSPT and is listed as certified for the pistol I'm selling on the CA DOJ web site.

I have three questions:

1. I understand bringing in my lock will satisfy PC12088.1(a), but can I take the lock with me after the PPT paperwork is done or do I have to leave it?

2. Can I sell my lock to the buyer and provide a receipt to him within 30 days of the PPT?

3. If we trade locks, then the buyer would have to purchase it from the FFL once the approval comes in unless it was a free lock that I was given in trade, is this correct?

1. The lock must leave the building with the buyer. If you want to arrange with the buyer to give it back to you after he picks up, that is fine, but the lock must go to the gun shop with the gun and leave with the gun.

2. Yes

3. Who are you trading locks with? You are confusing me.

If you are selling a gun in a PPT and you are providing a lock with the gun, it goes with the gun. If you are not providing a lock, then the buyer will either have to buy one from the dealer or buy one and bring in a receipt showing purchase within the last 30 days.

So either give the guy the lock and include it in the purchase out of the goodness of your own heart or just let him worry about it.

And of course all of this depends on the dealer. They might claim that the lock that comes with the pistol doesn't count and that the buyer will have to purchase a $20 cable lock from their store.

[Rukus]

Just a few weeks ago when I completed a PPT, the FFL told me that the gun lock that was provided with the gun would not satisfy the lock requirement and that I needed to buy a new one. When I told him I had a receipt and a lock that was purchased within 30 days he told me that It had to be dated within "10 days per CA law" and that the "30 days was a federal thing".

Complete FUD?

[kemasa]

The Feds have not published anything, as required, plus there is nothing in the Federal law about a receipt at all.

Please see:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.php

Persons who can demonstrate the purchase of a DOJ-approved safety device in the 30 days prior to taking possession of the firearm by presenting the device to the firearms dealer and providing the firearms dealer with a receipt showing the purchase date and model name of the device.