Gun Locks

[Lumpy8]

I recently did a PPT two hour drive from home.

After waiting the 10 day jail time, I attempted to pickup the handgun with a new (DOJ approved) gun lock in hand I had purchased several days before.

The FFL wouldn't release the handgun without a receipt showing lock was purchased no more than 30 days before pickup.

Hell, I had the lock, but didn't have the receipt.

So, I went to the local K-Mart and purchase a new lock, returned to FFL and showed him the receipt, leaving the lock in the car.

He released the handgun with no requirement to have the lock installed.

He didn't require the lock to be physically installed, he just wanted to see the receipt.

I then returned the lock to K-Mart for a refund.

Question: Is it the receipt that the DOJ is concerned about or is it the lock?

What would you as an FFL done in this situation. Thanks for all your wisdom.

[CenterX]

It's all about the paperwork.
No law that you have to have a lock installed to leave the store. Just make sure it is not visible to the public and in a locked container like a car trunk for the ride home.
It will be interesting to see what the FFLs post. Out of the 12 I've dealt with in the last 3 years only four of them agree on the procedures and laws.

[ugimports]

Here's the PC this relates to:

12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:

"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."
(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe. (3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

I will take your lock without receipt because I read it as complying with:
12088.1. (a)

However, it does need to be a CA DOJ approved lock. I've had some customers bring in cable locks they've had in the past and if I can't make out the make/model of it I offer to replace it with a free lock that the local PD provides. Additionally, I let all my customers know that Fremont PD offers free locks Mon-Fri 8am-5pm and if they need one to go grab one before coming. After they arrive I document the lock and all done.

The bolded section is how I read the fact that I can include whatever lock you bring in even without receipt. Since (a) is true then I don't have to worry about (e) which is the part about needing the receipt.

[dachan]

It's very specific in the penal code:

PC12088.1 (a) requires all firearms sold or transfered by a dealer in CA, including PPT's, to be accompanied by an approved lock.

PC12088.1 (d) exempts the purchaser from PC12088.1 (a) if he/she owns a qualified safe and presents the receipt to the dealer. The dealer is required by law to keep a copy of that receipt with the DROS. (Somewhere it became legal for the purchaser to sign an affidavit of ownership instead of presenting the safe receipt, but I don't want to look it up. Also, federal law requires handguns sold by 01 FFL's to be accompanied with a lock irregardless, so ownership of a safe won't be enough to release the firearm.)

PC12088.1 (e) exempts the purchaser from PC12088.1 (a) if he/she purchases an approved lock no more than 30days prior to taking possession of the firearm. The purchaser must present the lock and receipt to the dealer and the dealer is required by law to keep a copy of the receipt with the DROS.

The lesson here is that if you are the seller in a PPT, bring a CA approved lock along (or if you are the buyer, bring a lock along and give it to the seller before walking into the store). That way PC12088.1 (a) is satisfied.

[ugimports]

...
The lesson here is that if you are the seller in a PPT, bring a CA approved lock along (or if you are the buyer, bring a lock along and give it to the seller before walking into the store). That way PC12088.1 (a) is satisfied.

Where does PC12088.1(a) say when the firearm has to be accompanied by a lock? Since the transfer isn't completed until I sign out the DROS with date/time I see no reason I can't use the lock the customer brings in to satisfy PC12088.1(a). Since at the time of transfer completion the firearm would be accompanied by a lock.

[dachan]

The bolded section is how I read the fact that I can include whatever lock you bring in even without receipt. Since (a) is true then I don't have to worry about (e) which is the part about needing the receipt.

The CA approved lock has to come into your place at the same time as the firearm. If it comes afterwards, for example at the time of pickup, then a receipt dated within 30days must be shown, copied and kept with the DROS.

Administratively, you DOJ auditor will tell you that the make and model of the lock which accompanies a firearm under PC12088.1 (a) should be recorded in the comments section of the DROS. If a safe affidavit is complete at the time of DROS submission in the case of long guns, then the remark "Safe affidavit" should be entered in the comments section.

[dachan]

Where does PC12088.1(a) say when the firearm has to be accompanied by a lock? Since the transfer isn't completed until I sign out the DROS with date/time I see no reason I can't use the lock the customer brings in to satisfy PC12088.1(a). Since at the time of transfer completion the firearm would be accompanied by a lock.

A couple of audits ago, I was told that if the lock was not available at the time of DROS submission and therefore the make and model could not be entered in the comments section, then a copy of a receipt for a lock with make and model dated within 30days, or a safe affidavit in the case of long guns, must be attached to the DROS.

[ugimports]

A couple of audits ago, I was told that if the lock was not available at the time of DROS submission and therefore the make and model could not be entered in the comments section, then a copy of a receipt for a lock with make and model dated within 30days, or a safe affidavit in the case of long guns, must be attached to the DROS.

Interesting... isn't this one of those made up laws since the PC itself doesn't specify the lock has to be there at the time of DROS? I understand about the comments section, but I usually don't fill that in until time of pickup since that's when I've opened the case and actually looked to see what lock is in there.

I understand that's currently typical practice how you've described though. I guess if during my audit they tell me the same thing I will ask them to point out the PC that actually lists when the lock has to be with the firearm. The fact that the the PC reads "shall include or be accompanied by" leads me to believe that:

"shall include" -- lock is available with firearm at time of DROS
OR
"be accompanied by" -- lock is available with firearm at time of DROS completion/pick up.

It doesn't say that the customer can't bring in a lock to have it accompanied by firearm. It does say in section (e) that if section (a) wasn't satisfied then of course the receipt+lock would need to be present.

Basically section (a) says it's up to the dealer to make sure a lock is there. The dealer is exempt if (e) the buyer comes in with the lock/receipt date within 30 days.

Another way I can phrase it to the DOJ is that I include a Project Childsafe lock with each DROS, but if the customer comes in at pickup with a a DOJ approved lock I trade it out. In that way the firearm would have a lock during DROS and the lock would just be returned to me during DROS completion which would just mean my paperwork would have a the Project Childsafe lock listed, crossed out, and then a new lock written in for some number of customers.

[kemasa]

If the customer brings in the lock, then the receipt it needed. If the FFL gives the person a lock or if it comes with the firearm, then it does not. It is a good idea to document it. (e) would apply if the customer provides the lock, which means the other conditions apply.

In the case of the initial post, yes, it is important to have the receipt. If you get a good deal on 500 locks, it won't do you much good since the receipt is not within 30 days. It seems that they are trying to stop someone from buying one lock and using that for many firearms, but the whole concept is really just harassment. The person should be able to sign a statement that that have a means of locking the firearm. Unless there are minors at the house, there is no requirement that the firearm be locked up or anything.

[Lumpy8]

Just a note to add to this conversation.

The buyer (me) provided a DOJ certified lock without receipt at initial contact with FFL. I was told this lock wouldn't qualify without a receipt. At that time I was told by FFL that a new lock with receipt would be needed at time of pickup.

I understand the idea that the DOJ doesn't want one lock for multiple purchases, but they don't give a damn about the lock even being installed when leaving the premises.

[ugimports]

If the customer brings in the lock, then the receipt it needed. If the FFL gives the person a lock or if it comes with the firearm, then it does not. It is a good idea to document it. (e) would apply if the customer provides the lock, which means the other conditions apply.

So, in my example, if I give them a lock, but they choose to give it back to me since they brought their own lock at the time of pickup what gets documented on the DROS?

Also, I understand the common practice is what you're recommending, but the PC still isn't clear on who provides the lock when it is accompanied by the firearm and when it needs to accompany the firearm. It does state the dealer is responsible for making sure a lock is included or accompanied, but it makes no mention of where the lock comes from.

If however, it stated clearly that the lock either has to be included by the manufacturer or taken from dealer inventory and not provided by a customer then I would agree with everyone 100% that a customer providing a lock at a later time would not work without a receipt. However, the PC is written that way or the sections of PC I'm quoting are incomplete.

I would also agree with the general consensus if the PC in section (a) said that those lock requirements applied at the time the DROS (or sale/transfer) is started. Which it doesn't say either. It just says those requirements must be met to complete the sale or transfer.

I believe all FFLs would agree that the sale/transfer is not completed until the DROS is dated with the pickup time, correct?

I understand people have been audited and the DOJ says what is what, but my argument I think is reasonable to ask the DOJ auditors. I'm not circumventing their intended laws. As Kemasa said as well, the lock requirement itself is a little like harassment since it only applies if you have children in the house.

Furthermore, the Safe Affidavit doesn't make you sign stating that you agree to keep the firearms in the safe which is something the DOJ accepts. It just basically says "Yes, I have an approved safe and it has space"...

If you read the affidavit:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

There's nothing you're signing that says "Yes I agree that these firearms will be kept in the safe to keep them safe from children, puppies, and kitties..."

Anyways, I'll find out what the DOJ says to me during my first audit which has yet to occur, but I will make the argument if they ask.

Oddly enough, even if the requirement says the lock has to be accompanied with the firearm at the start of the transfer it doesn't mean I still can't have the customer bring in their lock and give it to me to sit next to the firearm.

[ugimports]

Just a note to add to this conversation.

The buyer (me) provided a DOJ certified lock without receipt at initial contact with FFL. I was told this lock wouldn't qualify without a receipt. At that time I was told by FFL that a new lock with receipt would be needed at time of pickup.

I understand the idea that the DOJ doesn't want one lock for multiple purchases, but they don't give a damn about the lock even being installed when leaving the premises.

The reason they don't care about the firearm being locked when you leave is because the requirement to have the lock is more about safely storing your firearm at home not for transport. It's all about saving the children.

12087.5. The Legislature makes the following findings:
(a) In the years 1987 to 1996, nearly 2,200 children in the United States under the age of 15 years died in unintentional shootings. In 1996 alone, 138 children were shot and killed unintentionally. Thus, more than 11 children every month, or one child every three days, were shot or killed unintentionally in firearms-related incidents.
(b) The United States leads the industrialized world in the rates of children and youth lost to unintentional, firearms-related deaths. A 1997 study from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reveals that for unintentional firearm-related deaths for children under the age of 15, the rate in the United States was nine times higher than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
(c) While the number of unintentional deaths from firearms is an unacceptable toll on America's children, nearly eight times that number are treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms each year for nonfatal unintentional gunshot wounds.
(d) A study of unintentional firearm deaths among children in California found that unintentional gunshot wounds most often involve handguns.
(e) A study in the December 1995 issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine found that children as young as three years old are strong enough to fire most commercially available handguns. The study revealed that 25 percent of three to four year olds and 70 percent of five to six year olds had sufficient finger strength to fire 59 (92 percent) of the 64 commonly available handguns referenced in the study.
(f) The Government Accounting Office (GAO), in its March 1991 study, "Accidental Shootings: Many Deaths and Injuries Caused by Firearms Could be Prevented," estimates that 31 percent of accidental deaths caused by firearms might be prevented by the addition of two safety devices: a child-resistant safety device that automatically engages and a device that indicates whether the gun is loaded. According to the study results, of the 107 unintentional firearms-related fatalities the GAO examined for the calendar years 1988 and 1989, 8 percent could have been prevented had the firearm been equipped with a child-resistant safety device. This 8 percent represents instances in which children under the age of six unintentionally shot and killed themselves or other persons.
(g) Currently, firearms are the only products manufactured in the United Stated that are not subject to minimum safety standards.
(h) A 1997 public opinion poll conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago in conjunction with the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research found that 74 percent of Americans support safety regulation of the firearms industry.
(i) Some currently available trigger locks and other similar devices are inadequate to prevent the accidental discharge of the firearms to which they are attached, or to prevent children from gaining access to the firearm.

[dachan]

If the customer brings in the lock, then the receipt it needed. If the FFL gives the person a lock or if it comes with the firearm, then it does not. It is a good idea to document it.

I was giving away locks when no lock was supplied with a firearm. During the audit, I was told that I had to attach a copy of the receipt for the lock to the DROS for any lock I supplied. Basically, the only time a copy of a receipt is not needed is when the lock comes with the firearm. In that case, I was told to enter the make and model in the comments section; i.e., OEM LOCK - SIG. Now I have buyers enter their name on a pre-printed receipt ($1) in their handwritting for each lock I give away and keep it with the DROS.

The buyer (me) provided a DOJ certified lock without receipt at initial contact with FFL. I was told this lock wouldn't qualify without a receipt. At that time I was told by FFL that a new lock with receipt would be needed at time of pickup.

The lock has to come with the firearm to qualify for PC12088.1 (a). That's why if you are the buyer and you bring the lock, give it to the seller before you enter the building.

I understand the idea that the DOJ doesn't want one lock for multiple purchases, but they don't give a damn about the lock even being installed when leaving the premises.

PC12088.1 doesn't say the lock has to be installed, just accompaning the firearm. There are different laws covering the transportation of firearms, specifically handguns, that require you to lock them, but it isn't the dealer's responsibility to enforce those laws.

[kemasa]

If the lock was included with the firearm from the seller, then it would be ok without a receipt, but there are additional hoops if the buyer provides it.

If you have a safe, then fill out the form.

Yes, you can buy a lock and return it and you don't have to use the lock, but all of that does not matter to the requirement regarding the receipt. If you expect it to make sense, then you are going to be disappointed.

[IrishPirate]

it's all about the paperwork, but i had a big 5 manager tell me he wouldn't release my mosin nagant 91/30 without a lock. i had a receipt for a lock i bought from the same store the day before and he told me i dont know anything about the laws and he wont let the gun go unless i have a lock. i told him "so i can buy a lock, walk the gun 10 feet from the door to my car, put the rifle in my car, come back in and return the lock?" the look of realization on his face was priceless and he just walked away. so i bought another one, got my rifle, put it in the car, came back and returned the lock i just bought. drove home, got the other lock and returned it too. i think he didn't like that a 24 year old (i'll admit i look much younger) knew more about gun laws than he did.

my point....you never know what someone's interpretation of the law is going to be so always be ready...at the end of the day, they don't have to release your gun until you satisfy their conditions, no matter how wrong they are.