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  • pythonfan
    CGN/CGSSA Contributor
    CGN Contributor
    • Jan 2012
    • 1926

    Gunbroker problems/advice

    I found a Remington 870 p-max 18.5 on Gunbroker. I contacted seller. He informed me that it is his personal property and he is not an ffl. I asked if he would ship to california. He didn't think that pistol grips were legal in California. I assured him they were. He agreed to ship if I won. He stated that if I won and it was not legal, it is my property and I must dispose of it. No refunds. No problem to me.

    I win. I contact him and he wants me to pay venmo. He gives me name of his best friends ffl to verify him. It was cordial. I call and everyone there knows him and speaks highly. I go ahead and pay. I inform him that as a private owner he can just mail it directly to my ffl with copy of his DL and bill of sale. He says no way must go through his buddies ffl. I say no problem, I call ffl and explain that they will have to sign up for CFLC and get a 5 digit CFD. I explain that my ffl will help through the process. He says no way, not going to do it. I present option 3. His ffll can ship to another ffl buddy of mine in Nevada and then that ffl will charge me another fee and get the CFD and ship to my ffl in California. He says no that's illegal and so is having seller send direct to my ffl.

    We get nowhere fast and seller demands to just give me a refund and to go away. I agree, not wanting to rock the boat and understanding their apprehension. Done deal...or so I thought.

    Two days later gunbroker sends me a message saying that I've been accused of attempting to make an illegal purchase. They are going to investigate and suspend me if true. The seller is demanding that I pay all of his fees since it was illegal. A "12 Guage pump shotgun 18.5 barrel." I contested it and gave all info including links to the CALDOJ website and calguns shotgun flow chart.

    I have received no info since from gunbroker and the claim is still there. It has been 4 days and it is really getting on my nerves. One the claim, and two he has it back up for sale at a much higher price than I won it for.

    Do I have any recourse?

    Did I make any legal errors based on what I wrote?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by pythonfan; 08-15-2020, 6:28 PM.
  • #2
    rromeo
    Calguns Addict
    • Sep 2009
    • 6981

    What state is he in? I don't know, but did it have to ship from an FFL in his state?
    Other than that, he's just an ***.
    Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

    - from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO
    (Revised Eastern Sect Edition)

    Comment

    • #3
      pythonfan
      CGN/CGSSA Contributor
      CGN Contributor
      • Jan 2012
      • 1926

      West Virginia. That's a good question. I will look into that.

      Comment

      • #4
        Oceanbob
        I need a LIFE!!
        • Jun 2010
        • 12720

        Tell him to remove the pistol grip and simply ship the shotgun.
        May the Bridges I burn light the way.

        Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain.

        Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728).

        Comment

        • #5
          rromeo
          Calguns Addict
          • Sep 2009
          • 6981

          It's most likely he doesn't know the law. He probably even thinks he can drive over here to Virginia and buy a 22 without an FFL. Ignorance around here is huge
          Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

          - from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO
          (Revised Eastern Sect Edition)

          Comment

          • #6
            pythonfan
            CGN/CGSSA Contributor
            CGN Contributor
            • Jan 2012
            • 1926

            His big problem is sending his DL if he ships and his ffl doing the CFLC program. They don't want any of their info given to California. Which I understand. I didn't fault him and agreed to him backing out. I am understanding.

            The problem is him reporting me as attempting illegal activity and demanding i pay his fees. I'm not sure if he legitimately thinks my option to have him mail directly to my ffl was illegal. Or if he is using this to worm his way out of paying the listing fees. Also he possibly didn't like the price I won it at so he wanted to try again and give me the blame for it.

            Really I want to know that I didn't run afoul of any California or federal laws in my 3 options. I want to cover myself in case gunbroker doesn't know the law.

            Option 1- he mails directly to my ffl. He includes DL and Bill of sale so I can pay my ca tax.

            Option 2-he utilizes his ffl. His ffl utilizes CFLC program to obtain CFD 5 digit number and then ships to my ffl.

            Option 3-he utilizes his ffl to log in gun, ship it to ffl in Nevada on my behalf, Nevada ffl logs it in, charges me a second transfer fee, obtains CFD number and mails it to my ffl.

            Any California laws being broken? Any federal laws being broken? I just don't want to find out I did in fact suggest illegal activity. I don't think I did.
            Last edited by pythonfan; 08-15-2020, 7:22 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              sass2924
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 757

              He probably reported like that so GB would not charge him a selling fee.

              Comment

              • #8
                rromeo
                Calguns Addict
                • Sep 2009
                • 6981

                No, I can't see anything you did wrong.
                Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

                - from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO
                (Revised Eastern Sect Edition)

                Comment

                • #9
                  pythonfan
                  CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                  CGN Contributor
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 1926

                  Thank you. I always do my darndest to make sure I understand the laws before I go into any deal. I even reached out to seller and got confirmation that he would ship PRIOR to bidding.

                  I did the research and my options do not appear to run afoul of west Virginia laws. Heck they don't even need background checks to sell each other firearms private party.

                  Apologies for being long winded. I just wanted all the information out there to be dissected.
                  Last edited by pythonfan; 08-15-2020, 8:51 PM.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    sfe187
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2016
                    • 1770

                    Seller has the upper hand when dealing with someone in CA. He is taking every advantage as he can, truth the matter is he didn't like the sold price and he didn't want to pay the listing fee. Having said that i don't blame the seller as you have to do all this crap to sell or own a gun for CA. In the future asks the seller prior if all the hoops and every single details about shipping to CA and see if he is willing and not just "do you ship to CA" as some has no clue what that means entirely in details.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      pythonfan
                      CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                      CGN Contributor
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 1926

                      Originally posted by sfe187
                      Seller has the upper hand when dealing with someone in CA. He is taking every advantage as he can, truth the matter is he didn't like the sold price and he didn't want to pay the listing fee. Having said that i don't blame the seller as you have to do all this crap to sell or own a gun for CA. In the future asks the seller prior if all the hoops and every single details about shipping to CA and see if he is willing and not just "do you ship to CA" as some has no clue what that means entirely in details.
                      I don't blame him a bit either for backing away. But it was his decision not to play ball, so in my mind its his job to pay the fees or cordially contact me to attempt to work it out, NOT make an allegation of illegal activity. I offered extra money to compensate his ffl for his time in making this work while protecting their privacy as much as possible with option #2 or #3. It would have cost me more time/money, but oh well I'd pay it. I was in no way rude or cheaping out. I will certainly ask more questions next time. In the future I won't put myself in this predicament or drag a seller through bs. But I will not allow someone to jeopardize my account or call into question my legal intent. That is when I got bothered. At the end of the day, as long as gunbroker acknowledges that I did not attempt illegal activity and we part ways, ill be satisfied. I wanted the gun, but there will be another opportunity down the road

                      And to be clear he as a private seller had VERY little to do to get it here. I explained that reason for DL was only relevant if the gun was stolen. Based on our conversation I don't believe that was the case. I also explained that the bill of sale was to Guage what California sales tax id have to pay.
                      Last edited by pythonfan; 08-15-2020, 10:29 PM.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        ronlglock
                        CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                        CGN Contributor
                        • May 2011
                        • 2670

                        Gunbroker problems/advice

                        Originally posted by sass2924
                        He probably reported like that so GB would not charge him a selling fee.
                        Originally posted by Oceanbob
                        Tell him to remove the pistol grip and simply ship the shotgun.
                        Last edited by ronlglock; 08-16-2020, 7:52 AM.
                        sigpic

                        NRA/USCCA/DOJ instructor, NRA CRSO, Journalist

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          ugimports
                          Vendor/Retailer
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 6250

                          Originally posted by pythonfan
                          His big problem is sending his DL if he ships and his ffl doing the CFLC program. They don't want any of their info given to California. Which I understand. I didn't fault him and agreed to him backing out. I am understanding.

                          The problem is him reporting me as attempting illegal activity and demanding i pay his fees. I'm not sure if he legitimately thinks my option to have him mail directly to my ffl was illegal. Or if he is using this to worm his way out of paying the listing fees. Also he possibly didn't like the price I won it at so he wanted to try again and give me the blame for it.

                          Really I want to know that I didn't run afoul of any California or federal laws in my 3 options. I want to cover myself in case gunbroker doesn't know the law.

                          Option 1- he mails directly to my ffl. He includes DL and Bill of sale so I can pay my ca tax.

                          Option 2-he utilizes his ffl. His ffl utilizes CFLC program to obtain CFD 5 digit number and then ships to my ffl.

                          Option 3-he utilizes his ffl to log in gun, ship it to ffl in Nevada on my behalf, Nevada ffl logs it in, charges me a second transfer fee, obtains CFD number and mails it to my ffl.

                          Any California laws being broken? Any federal laws being broken? I just don't want to find out I did in fact suggest illegal activity. I don't think I did.
                          I'm not sure what the bolded means. The sending FFL will have their information logged into the CA FFLs bound book regardless. While that is a federal document the state can look at specific entries if needed.

                          Also, them shipping through another FFL is not illegal (as we all know) so it's pretty absurd that they think it is. How do they think they get firearms from anywhere? Guess what, they ship from FFL to FFL until they get to the final consumers FFL. Even if that means mfg FFL to distributor FFL to retail FFL to possibly another retail FFL if sold on gunbroker.

                          Folks can be strange though...
                          UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
                          Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
                          web​ / email / vendor forum

                          I AM THE MAJORITY!!!

                          Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            edgerly779
                            CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                            CGN Contributor
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 19871

                            Buy it but find ffl that does not bend you over

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              rromeo
                              Calguns Addict
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 6981

                              CFLC was mentioned because he only wanted to have his FFL ship it.
                              Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

                              - from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO
                              (Revised Eastern Sect Edition)

                              Comment

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