CFLC Problems

[acespawnshop]

The headache grows still with this thing. As of now I've been asked by DOJ just to hang tight while they try and straighten it out. I've informed our customer who is a good guy and understands it sucks, but it is what it is.

[condor]

Interesting scenario. And this all could have been avoided if the buyer had done his home work and clarified that the GunBroker seller actually had an FFL1, was CFLC registered to ship to California, and excepted CC's or a Postal Money Order. There are quite a few GB sellers that refuse to ship to CA and state that in their description. Stay away from them. They usually have a hard on for anyone from CA. I have picked up several guns off Gun Broker without a problem. Even had a couple of dealers register and they had no problem doing it..... The buyer needs to have it squared away before bidding to avoid this kind of thing happening. So the onus is on the buyer, and unfortunately not on the receiving dealer. IMHO

[kemasa]

Interesting scenario. And this all could have been avoided if the buyer had done his home work and clarified that the GunBroker seller actually had an FFL1, was CFLC registered to ship to California, and excepted CC's or a Postal Money Order. There are quite a few GB sellers that refuse to ship to CA and state that in their description. Stay away from them. They usually have a hard on for anyone from CA. I have picked up several guns off Gun Broker without a problem. Even had a couple of dealers register and they had no problem doing it..... The buyer needs to have it squared away before bidding to avoid this kind of thing happening. So the onus is on the buyer, and unfortunately not on the receiving dealer. IMHO

There is no easy way to check to see if the FFL is registered on the CFLC system. In this case it is said that he has a FFL, just not all the required permits. As well, the person is in CA, so one would not expect CA issues.

The real problem is with the law and the CFLC which puts the receiving FFL and the buyer in a bad position if the number is not included. In addition, only the number is required, which can be an issue if the number of firearms claimed to have been sent is not accurate or the type is wrong. There is no notification that someone is sending you a firearm nor an easy way to confirm that the CFLC number is actually for the receiving FFL. So eliminate the bad law and the problem goes away.

[condor]

There is no easy way to check to see if the FFL is registered on the CFLC system. In this case it is said that he has a FFL, just not all the required permits. As well, the person is in CA, so one would not expect CA issues.

The real problem is with the law and the CFLC which puts the receiving FFL and the buyer in a bad position if the number is not included. In addition, only the number is required, which can be an issue if the number of firearms claimed to have been sent is not accurate or the type is wrong. There is no notification that someone is sending you a firearm nor an easy way to confirm that the CFLC number is actually for the receiving FFL. So eliminate the bad law and the problem goes away.

Maybe so, but my FFL1 does not except guns from non-ffl's, or from FFL's who are not registered CFLC. They will be refused. I think it's a good policy. I didn't at first, but after thinking about it a bit CFLC gives me some assurance that the seller isn't running a scam. I also don't pay for anything without some sort of recourse. Getting back to the issue with Gun Broker I don't buy anything from out of state private parties, and if in CA they'd better be local to my area for a PPT or it's a no go as well. I'll even check out there business address via Google Maps. If the place looks seedy I move on. I've found some very nice guns out of state and have never had a problem after doing some homework. I realize we can all play 'yes..but'... However, if something happens like in the original post the onus is on me.

[SkyHawk]

Maybe so, but my FFL1 does not except guns from non-ffl's, or from FFL's who are not registered CFLC. They will be refused. I think it's a good policy. I didn't at first, but after thinking about it a bit CFLC gives me some assurance that the seller isn't running a scam. I also don't pay for anything without some sort of recourse. Getting back to the issue with Gun Broker I don't buy anything from out of state private parties, and if in CA they'd better be local to my area for a PPT or it's a no go as well. I'll even check out there business address via Google Maps. If the place looks seedy I move on. I've found some very nice guns out of state and have never had a problem after doing some homework. I realize we can all play 'yes..but'... However, if something happens like in the original post the onus is on me.

Well, you're missing out then. You're self limiting and your FFL is limiting you too. If that makes you feel good, well Ok.

I regularly buy from out of state private parties via Gunbroker. My regular FFLs *all* accept shipments from non-licensees. Because, it is absolutely legal to do so. I have gotten some amazing pieces at awesome prices. I don't make-up extra laws or restrictions nor do the FFLs I frequent. We have enough real laws and restrictions to contend with, no need to make it worse by observing fantasy restrictions.

And as for CFLC giving you extra assurance, the residents in 49 other states seem to do just fine, day in and day out, without anything like it.

And we wonder why we keep getting piled-on with new laws in CA

[condor]

Well, you're missing out then. You're self limiting and your FFL is limiting you too. If that makes you feel good, well Ok.

I regularly buy from out of state private parties via Gunbroker. My regular FFLs *all* accept shipments from non-licensees. Because, it is absolutely legal to do so. I have gotten some amazing pieces at awesome prices. I don't make-up extra laws or restrictions nor do the FFLs I frequent. We have enough real laws and restrictions to contend with, no need to make it worse by observing fantasy restrictions.

And as for CFLC giving you extra assurance, the residents in 49 other states seem to do just fine, day in and day out, without anything like it.

And we wonder why we keep getting piled-on with new laws in CA

In your opinion... This is all well and good until you get stuck for 4-500 bucks by a gun and run scammer. It doesn't hurt to be a little cautious. Of course everything you read on the net is true....

[kemasa]

The CFLC is meaningless. It does not take much to sign up and for out of state dealers there is really no checks. Refusing shipments from private parties only increases the cost.

[ke6guj]

In your opinion... This is all well and good until you get stuck for 4-500 bucks by a gun and run scammer. It doesn't hurt to be a little cautious. Of course everything you read on the net is true....

?how do you get stuck for $4-500 on a bad transfer?

[condor]

The CFLC is meaningless. It does not take much to sign up and for out of state dealers there is really no checks. Refusing shipments from private parties only increases the cost.

In your opinion....

?how do you get stuck for $4-500 on a bad transfer?

Simple. The buyer sends the money since COD is ancient history, and your FFL never receives the gun, and the seller disappears. Phony gun and phony seller.
No real recourse. Kiss your bucks goodby... It's happened before and it'll happen again. Generally to someone that's complacent about dealing on the web....

[SkyHawk]

Generally to someone that's complacent about dealing on the web common sense....

Fixed it for you. Don't blame 'dealing on the web', blame a lack of vetting skills. It happens to people in face to face transactions too.

The CFLC does zero to protect you from a scam. Receiving only from FFLs does nothing to protect you from a scam. The FFLs do not act as escrow agents. You still have to send money to someone. Adding extra restrictions like CFLC or 'only receiving from licensees' is bunk advice to avoiding a scam.

[kemasa]

How do you check to see if the FFL is signed up on the CFLC?

How do you know that you are really dealing with the real FFL?

You don't get the CFLC until the firearm arrives.

You should check to make sure that you are sending the funds to the address listed on the FFL (premises or mailing address). You need to check to make sure that the email address is the one listed on their web page. You should use a credit car whenever possible and any money order or checks should be sent USPS (mail fraud charges possible).

Anyone could create an account on the CFLC system based on public information. The number on the CFLC can't be looked up online, you have to call. Yes, it my opinion it is meaningless and that is based on my experience, what is your opinion based on? You think it is some magic wonderful system?

You disagree that shipping through a FFL does not increase costs? There are bad people and there are bad FFLs, you will never be 100% protected. Feedback can help more than stupid government requirements.

So tell me again how the CFLC system protects you?

[kemasa]

Fixed it for you. Don't blame 'dealing on the web', blame a lack of vetting skills. It happens to people in face to face transactions too.

The CFLC does zero to protect you from a scam. Receiving only from FFLs does nothing to protect you from a scam. The FFLs do not act as escrow agents. You still have to send money to someone. Adding extra restrictions like CFLC or 'only receiving from licensees' is bunk advice to avoiding a scam.

Just to point out, you have to send money before the firearm is given to a FFL, before a CFLC is generated, etc. None of the "safe guards" occur before you pay.

Above points out the same thing I am saying, the CFLC isn't useful, or in other words it is meaningless except in terms of harassment. Non-FFLs don't need to use it, so tons of firearms can be shipped into CA with no record by the CFLC system.

A scammer can say they will drop it off at a FFL, but that does not matter since you will have already paid before you realize that they are not going to do that. Plus then they can say that they dropped off the firearm and blame it on the FFL, so then what?

[ke6guj]

Simple. The buyer sends the money since COD is ancient history, and your FFL never receives the gun, and the seller disappears. Phony gun and phony seller.
No real recourse. Kiss your bucks goodby... It's happened before and it'll happen again. Generally to someone that's complacent about dealing on the web....

gotcha, I thought you were talking about how a receiving dealer could get screwed $4-500 bucks receiving a gun from a non-FFL.

but now I see that you are talking about how you limit who you are willing to purchase from.

I usually just look at feedback on gunbroker. bought plenty of stuff on GB with never a problem. look at feedback before bidding.

[acespawnshop]

In this case the seller represented himself online as a private seller. The buyer did his due diligence beforehand he even checked with us to make sure we accept guns from private individuals without shipping through a FFL. We do. All the problems arose after the gun got here and he didn't ship it to us as an individual but using his dealer license.

At this point I can't go much further since the sending FFL has sent us something that has discrepancies with it and DOJ is looking into it and I've been asked by DOJ to hold on for a short while so they can look into it.

I'll update more when I hear back from my field rep, who I imagine is working with a rep up north on the matter.

[kemasa]

People can be stupid. If he had just sent it as if it was from an individual, then none of this would have come up. If he is a sole proprietor, then using the name and address would not have raised red flags as it would have been valid for logging it from a FFL as well.

But that is not the path he wanted to go down. I suspect it won't end well, depending on your view, such as free room and board.