The Bible

[hasserl]

Just jumping in here.

I've known people who believe the Bible to be the direct word of God and I've known people who think it's a complete fairy tail.

I studied and got a BA in History -it's always been my passion. Between all my education, the most important class I ever took was a "Bible as Literature" class in high school. The class worked to look at the Bible not as the direct word of God, but as a document derived from mankind over the many centuries. It basically had us study the Bible as a book and how it came to be -at least what we can verify through archaeology and known history. Already some may disagree with the premise of this study, but it had to come from somewhere and it was written by human hands, was it not? You can argue those human hands were inspired by God, but at the end of the day the Bible we have today is the result of human hands creating it (inspired or not).

I look at the Bible not as a book or even two separate books -I look at it like a library of books. Sparing the entire lecture, these are the important things we know about it. We know that the Old Testament started as the spoken word, passed around the campfire and down the family line for hundreds of years before anyone bothered to write it down and start canonizing it. Between just the first five books of the Old Testament (the writings of Moses), we see at least several different writing styles present at various times. From a historical/linguistic perspective, it's clear it was written by several authors at the least, and we find it hard to understand how Moses can write about his own death.

The Bible had been amended many times, some books thrown out, some included throughout various times in history. It was translated into dozens of languages before it was finally translated to English.

What I'm trying to say is I personally think it can be irresponsible to interpret every single word as the literal word of God -too many changes occurred, too many people had their hands on it, too many people could have modified and manipulated certain parts to align with their own beliefs. We can talk about the New Testament but are we not going to talk about how the Old Testament lays forth the rules for selling your daughter and owning slaves? Certainly we must agree that we should not at every word as the literal word of God -but then again, which God are we talking about? The God of the Old Testament had no mercy -Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt for just looking back at the destruction of the evil cities. When God wasn't pleased with the world he flooded it to kill off everything besides Noah and his lot. The God of the New Testament is far more peaceful and forgiving -either God had a change of heart or it's a different entity entirely.

What I'm trying to say is that I think we should take value in the Bible -it has many good lessons and important stories and figures that we should study. We should obtain the good we can from its teachings and lessons, but I find it potentially dangerous to hang onto every word as the literal word of God, with how many known changes have occurred throughout the ages.

I think it'll always be an important literary work to humanity and it should remain so, and it will always be a guiding light for those in need, but we must also keep in mind where it comes form. We shouldn't get wrapped around the axle about the details and we should focus more on the light we can get from it.

Just my 2.5 cents, no disrespect anyone.

No disrespect to you, but the historicity of the scriptures is very solid. Your HS class on the Bible as Lit was taught by a HS teacher (limited education and knowledge on the topic), with an agenda. The level of scrutiny applied to the study of ancient texts is astounding, performed by people with far greater education and experience than your HS teacher. I know, that is an appeal to authority, which is a fallacious argument; but the fact is, the accuracy has been checked and rechecked, and rechecked multiple times by people who are experts in ancient literature, geography, geology, archaeology, etc. The evidence in support of the historicity is excellent and rivals that of any ancient literature.

You might want to check out John W Montgomery's History and Christianity for more info on the topic.

http://www.amazon.com/History-Christianity-John-Warwick-Montgomery/dp/087123890X

[mossy]

Buddhist don't have anything to say about Jesus?

Again, Jesus is not important in Buddhism. Some believe he was a bodhisattva, but that's about it. He is not talked about in any sutra i have read, the pali cannon was written before he was around, and we don't believe he is the one way out of suffering. Jesus is not a big deal in Buddhism. And why would he be involved in Buddhism? Buddhism came from the teachings of the Buddha, not Jesus. Is the Buddha a big deal in christianity?

[Not a Cook]

Just jumping in here.

I've known people who believe the Bible to be the direct word of God and I've known people who think it's a complete fairy tail.

I studied and got a BA in History -it's always been my passion. Between all my education, the most important class I ever took was a "Bible as Literature" class in high school. The class worked to look at the Bible not as the direct word of God, but as a document derived from mankind over the many centuries. It basically had us study the Bible as a book and how it came to be -at least what we can verify through archaeology and known history. Already some may disagree with the premise of this study, but it had to come from somewhere and it was written by human hands, was it not? You can argue those human hands were inspired by God, but at the end of the day the Bible we have today is the result of human hands creating it (inspired or not).

I look at the Bible not as a book or even two separate books -I look at it like a library of books. Sparing the entire lecture, these are the important things we know about it. We know that the Old Testament started as the spoken word, passed around the campfire and down the family line for hundreds of years before anyone bothered to write it down and start canonizing it. Between just the first five books of the Old Testament (the writings of Moses), we see at least several different writing styles present at various times. From a historical/linguistic perspective, it's clear it was written by several authors at the least, and we find it hard to understand how Moses can write about his own death.

The Bible had been amended many times, some books thrown out, some included throughout various times in history. It was translated into dozens of languages before it was finally translated to English.

What I'm trying to say is I personally think it can be irresponsible to interpret every single word as the literal word of God -too many changes occurred, too many people had their hands on it, too many people could have modified and manipulated certain parts to align with their own beliefs. We can talk about the New Testament but are we not going to talk about how the Old Testament lays forth the rules for selling your daughter and owning slaves? Certainly we must agree that we should not at every word as the literal word of God -but then again, which God are we talking about? The God of the Old Testament had no mercy -Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt for just looking back at the destruction of the evil cities. When God wasn't pleased with the world he flooded it to kill off everything besides Noah and his lot. The God of the New Testament is far more peaceful and forgiving -either God had a change of heart or it's a different entity entirely.

What I'm trying to say is that I think we should take value in the Bible -it has many good lessons and important stories and figures that we should study. We should obtain the good we can from its teachings and lessons, but I find it potentially dangerous to hang onto every word as the literal word of God, with how many known changes have occurred throughout the ages.

I think it'll always be an important literary work to humanity and it should remain so, and it will always be a guiding light for those in need, but we must also keep in mind where it comes form. We shouldn't get wrapped around the axle about the details and we should focus more on the light we can get from it.

Just my 2.5 cents, no disrespect anyone.

mr2ndamendment - no disrespect to you either, but Just Dave and hasserl have both already replied accurately. The historicity, internal cohesiveness, external evidences, etc. that bear witness to the accuracy and reliability of the Bible are truly amazing. Since you claim the Bible to be inaccurate, please provide real evidence of such inaccuracy. If you cannot provide such evidence, please refrain from making such a claim. The Bible is not like any simple "piece of literature" written by mere man - it is the very word of God, and is powerful. If you study it merely as literature and assume it to be inaccurate and fictional, you're missing the point of the book!

Your post above is inaccurate in multiple ways. Moses wrote the five "books of Moses" (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy), although a second person did amend the books to record Moses' death. The internal evidences within the books bear witness that they were written by Moses, not multiple authors (with the caveat of the recording of his death) as you stated.

Your statement,

The Bible had been amended many times, some books thrown out, some included throughout various times in history. It was translated into dozens of languages before it was finally translated to English.

is intriguing. Yes, the Bible has been translated into dozens of languages, and is still being actively translated today into various languages. That does not imply any inaccuracy. We have the ancient manuscripts which are accessible for verification of any modern translation against the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Most common English translations have been done straight from the original languages, not via an intermediate translation. The number of translations into various other languages actually provides still more evidence for the historicity and accurate transmission of the Bible, as many of those ancient translations are useful to verify that the Bible has been accurately preserved. Also, you mention "amended" - when, exactly, has the Bible ever been amended? Also, you mention "some books were thrown out" - what books were "thrown out" of the canon? The process of recognizing which books were truly part of the Scriptures and thus part of the canon is a very interesting and in-depth study. If you bother to investigate it for yourself, you may be shocked to find out how accurate the Bible actually is. The Bible consists of 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over more than a millenium, by folks from varying walks of life (e.g. kings, shepherds, fig picker, prophets, tax collector, doctor, fisherman, etc.) and during various empires' influence (Egyptian, Hittite, Babylonian, Persian, Roman, etc.), yet these 66 books perfectly agree with one another. Don't believe me? Then I post a challenge: please present me with an actual contradiction in the Bible.

God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is the same in the books of the Old Testament as in the books of the New Testament. If you think He's changed, you've misunderstood the message of the Scriptures. You stated that the "the God of the Old Testament had no mercy" - that is entirely incorrect. God is extremely merciful. He was merciful all over the Old Testament. Do you remember the book of Jonah? Jonah is a glaring testament to God's mercy, kindness, grace, and love. There are MANY others, it's all over the place, but Jonah is an exceedingly easy place to point out that God is very merciful, and always has been.

[Kestryll]

I see some have either ignored or forgotten to read the rules AND forgotten the unlike with Christ there is no second chance here.

[Not a Cook]

like I said previously this conversation will bear no fruit.

What "fruit" did you think your participation would bear? Did you think you'd talk a Christian into not believing the Bible?

people of this mentality begin to worship the book as if it itself is some holy entity worthy of our praise. it's utterly ridiculous and is bordering on the muslim craziness regarding the quaran/hadiths. there is no reflection on god, just the book. everything regarding god begins with, well god says in this book or that book.

God gave us the Bible so that we'd know Who He is and how He is, and so that we would understand the gospel and come to follow Christ, and ultimately come to love Him above all else. Every page teaches us about Him and leads us to love Him and worship Him.

how many words in the bible were actually said to be spoken by god?

Easy... all of them:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 1 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)

it seems the congregation have lost their way, which is why I refuse to go to church. it's a group of people seeking to find peace from the pages of a book instead of looking within themselves and finding god there. Christians don't think for themselves they follow like sheep, how does that please God? find your own way to praise and worship the almighty that would do him a bigger service than echoing verses out a book.

Um... "looking within themselves and finding god there"?!? That's in direct contradiction with what the Scriptures teach. Christ called men to confess and repent over our sins, not to look inside ourselves and find God. Apart from Christ, we're full of wickedness, not God. Your words betray your beliefs: you don't like our focus on the Scriptures because you believe something in direct contradiction with the Scriptures.

[echoThreeOneSix]

What "fruit" did you think your participation would bear? Did you think you'd talk a Christian into not believing the Bible?

No, if you have read page one you would have seen that's exactly what I don't want.

I just understand that chrisitians have become so indoctrinated in the "only" way to salvation that they miss most of the important parts of spirituality and love.

Easy... all of them:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 1 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)

Not true, the are like seven statements (not a fact, something I loosely remember from various bible studies, the words of Christ in red on most bibles) in the bible actually recorded as being said by Jesus. All the other words are written by men claiming to be inspired by God... two totally different things.

Um... "looking within themselves and finding god there"?!? That's in direct contradiction with what the Scriptures teach. Christ called men to confess and repent over our sins, not to look inside ourselves and find God. Apart from Christ, we're full of wickedness, not God. Your words betray your beliefs: you don't like our focus on the Scriptures because you believe something in direct contradiction with the Scriptures.

not a contradiction. we are all children of god and created in his image... right? why would we not be able to find god inside of us?? we have a spirit, right? we have a soul, right? a soul which according to your bible belongs to god... I would say looking within (sort of like the eastern religions) will lead to god before looking to a bible will.

[mike.h]

. .......I would say looking within (sort of like the eastern religions) will lead to god before looking to a bible will.........

Nope....Pretty much what Mohammad , Joseph Smith, and the JW guy did. And let's not forget Jim Jones or the westboro crazies.

ps: you keep forgetting that man is corrupt,

[echoThreeOneSix]

. .......I would say looking within (sort of like the eastern religions) will lead to god before looking to a bible will.........

Nope....Pretty much what Mohammad , Joseph Smith, and the JW guy did. And let's not forget the Jones guy or the westboro crazies.

ps: you keep forgetting that man is corrupt,

lol... or that's what they keep telling us.

[Not a Cook]

No, if you have read page one you would have seen that's exactly what I don't want.

I just understand that chrisitians have become so indoctrinated in the "only" way to salvation that they miss most of the important parts of spirituality and love.

What you call "indoctrinated" is simply following Christ's teachings. Consider these verses:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6 (NKJV)

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:8-12 (NKJV)

“Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” Luke 12:51-53 (NKJV)

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. Matthew 12:30 (NKJV)

From the above quotes, it is obvious that Christ made very EXCLUSIONARY claims. He claimed to be the ONLY way to God; the ONLY truth. He claimed there is no other way to God. Therefore, anyone who claims that there is another way to God is at odds with Christ.

Not true, the are like seven statements (not a fact, something I loosely remember from various bible studies, the words of Christ in red on most bibles) in the bible actually recorded as being said by Jesus. All the other words are written by men claiming to be inspired by God... two totally different things.

Not sure what you're referring to. Are you trying to suggest that the authors of the New Testament books "made up" saying and then credited them to Christ? If so, I find that amazing, since that would mean most of them died as martyrs for something they would know to be a lie. Even John, the exception (as he did not die a martyr), came close to dying as a martyr multiple times and suffered VERY greatly for Christ. These men's lives bear witness that Christ really taught what the Bible records.

not a contradiction. we are all children of god and created in his image... right? why would we not be able to find god inside of us?? we have a spirit, right? we have a soul, right? a soul which according to your bible belongs to god... I would say looking within (sort of like the eastern religions) will lead to god before looking to a bible will.

I understand your line of thinking, but it is in direct opposition to what the Scriptures teach. Please consider the following points:

- First of all, "No", we are not all children of God. In fact, at birth none of us start are children of God. Per John 1:12-13, the "children of God" are those "those who believe in His name". At our natural birth, we are not children of God but children of the devil. Christ taught, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. " in John 8:44 (NKJV). All people start out being children of the devil; those who follow Christ are the only ones who become children of God. Not until we are born again to new life in Christ (as Christ taught Nicodemus in John 3) do we become children of God.

- Adam was created in God's image. However, Adam fell into sin and that image was corrupted. We now bear the stain of sin, something totally at odds with God's perfect nature.

- We can't "find God inside of us" because by our nature we are children of the devil who no longer bear God's perfect image, unless and until we come to receive Christ, believe on His name, and be born again as Christ taught to Nicodemus in John 3.

- Yes, we have a spirit, and we are souls. However, Satan and demons also have spirits. Just because something or someone has a spirit or is a soul doesn't mean it has God inside.

- The Bible teaches us that our hearts are deceitful and not to be trusted. Jeremiah 17:9 (NKJV) says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Isaiah 53:6 (NKJV) says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Also Deuteronomy 11:16 (NKJV, note: Christ quoted Deuteronomy the most), "Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them...".

All that said, until you come to Christ looking within yourself will only lead you to increasing self-delusion and demonic delusion. The problem - sin - is inside us. The answer is not inside us, but rather outside us, UNTIL we follow Christ and are born again. When a person is born again (as Christ taught Nicodemus) the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. Until that time, looking within will only lead us further from the truth, not closer to God.

Your philosophy is very much in line with "eastern religious thinking", but it is totally contrary to what Christ taught. Christ said He is the ONLY way to God, and made it very clear that there is no other way to God.

[echoThreeOneSix]

What you call "indoctrinated" is simply following Christ's teachings.

I apologize for that way that came out. I didn't mean it like that, what I meant was simply that relying only on the Bible as guidance the message of Christ is lost. What does Christ really teach? Love right, when we lose the original message of loving each other as Christ would love we tend not to worry about, "what the Bible says" we concentrate on loving and enjoying each other. People say that each day is a gift from God, well, if that's so should each day be treated as such. Get your nose out of a book and out into the world to love each other. That is the best way to be a good witness of Christ's love.

Not sure what you're referring to. Are you trying to suggest that the authors of the New Testament books "made up" saying and then credited them to Christ? If so, I find that amazing, since that would mean most of them died as martyrs for something they would know to be a lie. Even John, the exception (as he did not die a martyr), came close to dying as a martyr multiple times and suffered VERY greatly for Christ. These men's lives bear witness that Christ really taught what the Bible records.

What I mean is the actual words of Christ in the Bible are very few. Most Bibles have the words of Christ in red. After some quick google work jesus spoke less than half a percent of the bible so when people say, "Christ said, or Jesus says", they're wrong because Christ didn't actually say much. It was people who claimed to be inspired by God.

To address your second point about people dying as martyrs. It doesn't take much in their society to die for something. Look at their culture now (I'm not talking Jews, I'm talking Arabs and the like). They don't value life. They aren't all suicide bombers but they condone it, to die for religion/God/Allah in their society is to setup the rest of your family in the kingdom of heaven. I know it didn't apply really to Jesus's time, but most of the people that wrote the books of the Bible weren't alive in Jesus's time anyway. Also, it's easy to get people to die for something. Look at all the crazies who drank the Kool-Aide for that meteor. Dying for something doesn't mean it's true.

- First of all, "No", we are not all children of God. In fact, at birth none of us start are children of God. Per John 1:12-13, the "children of God" are those "those who believe in His name". At our natural birth, we are not children of God but children of the devil. Christ taught, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. " in John 8:44 (NKJV). All people start out being children of the devil; those who follow Christ are the only ones who become children of God. Not until we are born again to new life in Christ (as Christ taught Nicodemus in John 3) do we become children of God.

- Adam was created in God's image. However, Adam fell into sin and that image was corrupted. We now bear the stain of sin, something totally at odds with God's perfect nature.

- We can't "find God inside of us" because by our nature we are children of the devil who no longer bear God's perfect image, unless and until we come to receive Christ, believe on His name, and be born again as Christ taught to Nicodemus in John 3.

- Yes, we have a spirit, and we are souls. However, Satan and demons also have spirits. Just because something or someone has a spirit or is a soul doesn't mean it has God inside.

- The Bible teaches us that our hearts are deceitful and not to be trusted. Jeremiah 17:9 (NKJV) says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Isaiah 53:6 (NKJV) says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Also Deuteronomy 11:16 (NKJV, note: Christ quoted Deuteronomy the most), "Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them...".

Your philosophy is very much in line with "eastern religious thinking", but it is totally contrary to what Christ taught. Christ said He is the ONLY way to God, and made it very clear that there is no other way to God.

After what you explained, I'm glad I'm contrary to what your Christ taught. I don't want any part of a deity like that. It sounds utterly ridiculous that I would be born a "child of Satan"... laughable even. I think an all just, all loving God wouldn't even entertain an idea like that. It would be so utterly below him. Why would he need to murder his own son for screwing us up in the first place? I don't get it.

I'm sorry I know you've been patiently trying to explain it to me but at this point I really don't think we'll get anywhere. I appreciate your educated perspective and hope that I have no offended you in any way. Thank you for your time.

[Not a Cook]

I'm sorry I know you've been patiently trying to explain it to me but at this point I really don't think we'll get anywhere. I appreciate your educated perspective and hope that I have no offended you in any way. Thank you for your time.

echoThreeOne Six - You haven't offended me at all, and I doubt you've offended anyone else here. Thank you for your respectful participation.

The message of the gospel of Christ is offensive (consider again Luke 12:51-53, NKJV, where Christ said, Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division., but I too hope that I personally (rather than the gospel) haven't offended you in any way.

[colossians323]

Nothing. Buddhism was founded long before Jesus walked the earth. He is not important in Buddhism.

Actually that can be argued against. The preincarnate Christ walked the earth long before buddha was a twinkle in his creators eyes

[Lineman101]

Actually that can be argued against. The preincarnate Christ walked the earth long before buddha was a twinkle in his creators eyes

From the very beginning, great point colossians323!

[Lineman101]

echoThreeOneSix, you just know I'm gonna quote that Bible again!

John 10:17-18 (ESV)

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Jesus freely laid down His life for us. God did not "murder" Him. It was by His own accord that He performed this for us.

[Not a Cook]

^-- amen! and hallelujah!