Imbibing Alcohol

[WASR10]

1 Cup Church of Christ or the whole bunch of little cups during communion Church of Christ?

bunch o little cups. That has been the subject of study too.

[Wordupmybrotha]

WASR10, I agree with you. Jesus turned water into wine, which tells me Jesus thinks it's okay to drink alcohol. Then the other verses in the Bible admonishes drunkenness.

Wow, so putting two and two together, the Bible is saying that it's okay to drink alcohol without getting drunk. Didn't need to attend seminary and get a doctorate to figure that out. Imagine that, God made the Bible easy to understand.

[Sailormilan2]

WASR10, I agree with you. Jesus turned water into wine, which tells me Jesus thinks it's okay to drink alcohol. Then the other verses in the Bible admonishes drunkenness.

Wow, so putting two and two together, the Bible is saying that it's okay to drink alcohol without getting drunk. Didn't need to attend seminary and get a doctorate to figure that out. Imagine that, God made the Bible easy to understand.

Unfortunately, there are groups out there that literally teach that the "wine" in the Bible was grape juice, and that Christ changed water into grape juice. I know this, because I have heard it many, many, many times.
These same people will also teach, or believe, that one little drink, or sip, will send one down the path to perdition.

[Just Dave]

Unfortunately, there are groups out there that literally teach that the "wine" in the Bible was grape juice, and that Christ changed water into grape juice. I know this, because I have heard it many, many, many times.
These same people will also teach, or believe, that one little drink, or sip, will send one down the path to perdition.

I've never heard that but I have heard that wine brings joy, I don't think grape juice can do that even though it tastes better than water.

[RAMCLAP]

Unfortunately, there are groups out there that literally teach that the "wine" in the Bible was grape juice, and that Christ changed water into grape juice. I know this, because I have heard it many, many, many times.
These same people will also teach, or believe, that one little drink, or sip, will send one down the path to perdition.

I have seen and heard this many times as well.

[Not a Cook]

Good discussion, gentlemen! I have nothing to add, but do have one question.

Bill wrote,

Their alcohol as only about 2.5-2.7% alcohol and they would still get drunk.

Background: I have heard the above percentages (and similar percentages) cited by multiple teachers, AND I have also heard VERY different percentages cited by multiple teachers as well. I have not been able to back up ANY percentages with any historical data which seems to be both RELIABLE, trustworthy, and also all-encompassing for the locations and long span over which the Scriptures were written. Considering the extremely WIDE spectrum of alcoholic content in today's alcoholic drinks, I also find it quite plausible that such a wide spectrum of alcoholic contents might have been common "way back when" (especially when considering the obvious inference of such a alcoholic spectrum as demonstrated in verses such as Proverbs 31:6).

My question is straightforward: can you point me to any such reliable, trustworthy data to back up ANY such percentages? (I ask because I myself have been asked, and don't have a definitive response to this question one way or another, but would very much like to.)

[RAMCLAP]

This is a little long. It should shed some light. I may have missed it but I did not see anything on yeast making alcohol percentage that low. That is not to say it could not be cut with water. I didn't see that though either.

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp

[Sailormilan2]

I have no experience making wine, or any other alcoholic beverage, but from my experience in chemistry and biology, the higher the sugar content the higher the alcohol content.
Must is the first squeezing of the grape and has a higher sugar content. Grape juice can start fermenting within 12 hrs of being squeezed/crushed from a grape. One reason I firmly believe that the wine really was wine. Especially the Passover wine. Grapes would ripen in late summer and Passover is in the spring. There is no way grape juice would keep that long without fermenting. Though I have read an article which claims the ancients had a way to preserve grapes so they could be used to make fresh grape juice at will. I'm not sure I believe the article.
The ancients weren't stupid. They also made beers and distilled beverages.

[DannyInSoCal]

My God doesn't mind when I drink.

I know for a fact the charities we support prefer it....

[Sailormilan2]

WASR10, I forgot an important verse when I listed verses in support earlier. Deut. 14:26 has God giving permission to drink wine or strong drink at a party. A party paid for with tithe money.
It's really kind of hard to argue against the use of alcohol when God Himself says, Go Ahead.

[sharxbyte]

I'm a Seventh Day Adventist and I still partake, just not to the point of being drunk.

[Doheny]

Our church doesn't teach not to drink or that you shouldn't. However, if you get married at our wedding venue it must be a dry wedding. Also, church staff must sign a covenant that they won't drink while employed by the church.

[flyer898]

It mIght be useful to put a Surgeon General warning on alcoholic beverages: "Drinking causes people." It probably would not do any good though.

[RAMCLAP]

I have no experience making wine, or any other alcoholic beverage, but from my experience in chemistry and biology, the higher the sugar content the higher the alcohol content.
Must is the first squeezing of the grape and has a higher sugar content. Grape juice can start fermenting within 12 hrs of being squeezed/crushed from a grape. One reason I firmly believe that the wine really was wine. Especially the Passover wine. Grapes would ripen in late summer and Passover is in the spring. There is no way grape juice would keep that long without fermenting. Though I have read an article which claims the ancients had a way to preserve grapes so they could be used to make fresh grape juice at will. I'm not sure I believe the article.
The ancients weren't stupid. They also made beers and distilled beverages.

It also has to do with what alcohol percentage the yeast dies. So, brewers/fermenters use different yeasts for different flavors. A yeast that dies early will leave a sweet taste because not all of the sugar was converted etc.

[billvau]

Good discussion, gentlemen! I have nothing to add, but do have one question.

My question is straightforward: can you point me to any such reliable, trustworthy data to back up ANY such percentages? (I ask because I myself have been asked, and don't have a definitive response to this question one way or another, but would very much like to.)

It was years ago that I studied this but used multiple journal articles (like Bib Sac, etc.) and the best exegetical commentaries (like Hoehner, O'Brien, etc.) and the most reputable historical authors (like Schaff, Barclay, etc.).

I know I never trust just one source in my studies, so wouldn't have used numbers that were controversial or not commonly used by the academics I've trusted over the years.

But, like a good wine, my memory has aged with the years...

Bill