Calvinism

[huskydog]

There are many Arminians in the Pub.

I'll check it out.

[Darto]

So if free will choice is necessary for salvation, then God placed over half the Earth in places where they will never hear of God. And therefore have no way to be saved. I do not believe that, that is I do not believe a good God would do that.

So if predestination is how salvation operates, then anybody in any land has as good a chance of salvation or not. I do believe that.

Salvation comes by Faith and Faith comes by hearing. Hearing what? The whole Bible? Not possible because every translation is different, verses in one translation or not in another.

So how much hearing is necessary for saving Faith? Perhaps just one verse or half a verse. Such small fragments of the true Gospel are out there in every time and every place. Everyone will hear the Gospel. Some will believe it, some won't. If they won't it because they do not want to believe it. They tell themselves it is not sensible or logical. Actually they just do want to believe it because then they are required to live certain way. Being selfish they refuse to. And tell themselves it is because it is foolishness. No it is not foolish, but it requires living an unselfish life. And this they will not do. They can do it. But they will not.

So the will does come into play, even in Calvinism and it's belief in a sovereign God who created everything and is responsible for everything he created.

[Just Dave]

So if free will choice is necessary for salvation, then God placed over half the Earth in places where they will never hear of God. And therefore have no way to be saved. I do not believe that, that is I do not believe a good God would do that.

So if predestination is how salvation operates, then anybody in any land has as good a chance of salvation or not. I do believe that.

Salvation comes by Faith and Faith comes by hearing. Hearing what? The whole Bible? Not possible because every translation is different, verses in one translation or not in another.

So how much hearing is necessary for saving Faith? Perhaps just one verse or half a verse. Such small fragments of the true Gospel are out there in every time and every place. Everyone will hear the Gospel. Some will believe it, some won't. If they won't it because they do not want to believe it. They tell themselves it is not sensible or logical. Actually they just do want to believe it because then they are required to live certain way. Being selfish they refuse to. And tell themselves it is because it is foolishness. No it is not foolish, but it requires living an unselfish life. And this they will not do. They can do it. But they will not.

So the will does come into play, even in Calvinism and it's belief in a sovereign God who created everything and is responsible for everything he created.

Acts 17:26-27

BTW the gospel is being spread all over the world.

"Some will believe it, some won't. If they won't it because they do not want to believe it. They tell themselves it is not sensible or logical. Actually they just do want to believe it because then they are required to live certain way."

The funny thing about Christianity is that it requires that a person surrender their life and a lot of people don't want to do that (they will eventually anyway).

[TomMcC]

So if free will choice is necessary for salvation, then God placed over half the Earth in places where they will never hear of God. And therefore have no way to be saved. I do not believe that, that is I do not believe a good God would do that.

So if predestination is how salvation operates, then anybody in any land has as good a chance of salvation or not. I do believe that.

Salvation comes by Faith and Faith comes by hearing. Hearing what? The whole Bible? Not possible because every translation is different, verses in one translation or not in another.

So how much hearing is necessary for saving Faith? Perhaps just one verse or half a verse. Such small fragments of the true Gospel are out there in every time and every place. Everyone will hear the Gospel. Some will believe it, some won't. If they won't it because they do not want to believe it. They tell themselves it is not sensible or logical. Actually they just do want to believe it because then they are required to live certain way. Being selfish they refuse to. And tell themselves it is because it is foolishness. No it is not foolish, but it requires living an unselfish life. And this they will not do. They can do it. But they will not.

So the will does come into play, even in Calvinism and it's belief in a sovereign God who created everything and is responsible for everything he created.

1. Where do you get your idea and definition of good, and especially concerning God's goodness. There are many verses that tell us that God chose a specific people out of all the peoples of the earth in the OT....there He revealed (in a more full way) the true religion. At the time of Abraham, the whole earth was in pagan darkness, at the time of Christ there were even Jews ignorant of the true religion. It is true that some gentiles were blessed with the hearing and believing of the gospel (Rahab, Nineveh), but the vast majority of gentiles were excluded from the hearing. The peoples of of China, of the western hemisphere, of much of Europe were aliens to the covenants of grace. We have no evidence that people scattered across the earth (in ancient times) had access to any of the OT or even heard bits of it. The hearing of the Gospel is a privilege not a right and God will have mercy on whom He will and harden whom He will. Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22.

All the scriptures related to predestination actually deny that all are elected, or that everyone has an equal shot at salvation. There has been many babies for instance, in and out of the womb, that have died without ever being able to exercise their freewill toward salvation. They could not even understand the true religion much less assent to it. Perish they did. Were some of them predestined to salvation according to election? I think so.

Bible translations for the most part, even the less than stellar versions, relate the same propositions as relates to the testimony of God about His nature and the Gospel. And it is not true, unless you have some info to the contrary, that bits and pieces of the OT or NT are out there everywhere at every time. Did the American Indians in say 300 AD have a bit of the OT or NT before they were evangelized beginning around the 16 th century? I must assume that when you say that believing one verse or a partial verse of scripture is sufficient for salvation is hyperbole. The Gospel, whether in the OT or NT, was made up of many propositions, that if they of old or us now deny we can't really be saved. That's not to deny that God did reveal the truth progressively, but we must say that the true religion always had a core of who God was, and that salvation was of His messiah and that it was by grace through faith alone.

As for the place of the will in salvation, no Calvinist that I'm aware of would deny that man's will is involved in salvation. The issue has always been is there such a thing as "freewill", it's meaning and it's application. I think the bible never puts forth the idea that man's will is in anyway free from God, or that man's will is the cause of his salvation, or that man's will can thwart even the most minute detail of God's plan. Calvinists would generally say that the fallen will of man can never choose God, that God must first renew (regenerate) the will, so that this renewed man can then believe the Gospel, so that All of salvation from beginning to end is of grace alone, God receiving all the glory.

Roman 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth,nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

[TomMcC]

Some of you may find this interesting, I did.

http://scripturalism.com/determinism-and-responsibility/