The Logos

[WASR10]

Its an interesting phenomena that a studied believer will come to take certain truths for granted, and suppose such truths are generally understood. It is good to be reminded that not everyone who approaches the subject would understand this when reading John 1. Though 'force' isn't the English word I would use to represent the essence of logos, it does convey the idea to our 21st century minds pretty well. Thanks for sharing!

[RAMCLAP]

I don't think that the Nicean Creed says that Jesus is Yahweh.

https://www.ccel.org/creeds/nicene.creed.html

I totally get that Yahweh is "The one at the burning bush that told Moses, "I am that I am". He is the God of Abraham,, Issac, and Jacob." I've just never heard that Jesus is Yahweh.

What Faith do you follow? What do you call your flavor of Christianity?

And we've been totally sidetracked from understanding what you are saying about Logos.

Ok. One at a Time.

1. Nicean Creed "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God"

2. John 5:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!(Yaweh)”. So, it goes "before Abraham was, Yaweh. Or in Greek, "Ego Imi". I am.
3. I am Presbyterian. Evangelical Presbyterian to be exact. We are orthodox Christians. Not to be confused with Eastern Orthodox. Although they are orthodox as well. The term orthodox simply means that Christ is God.

I totally intend to answer all of your questions as best I can. But, I have to be up at 0500 and I have to make lunches for the fam for tomorrow. So, ask away and I'll get back to you at my best possible time. Nite.

[eb47]

the glory of the one and only Son(Jesus), who came from the Father(Jehovah)

Man I hate to use this, but it depends what your definition of is is.

Not really sure as to what you mean but that is what I believe. Jesus is God, not a God but thee God. The same God before time existed is He (Jesus). The one that robed himself in flesh to become our perfect Lamb. One without spot or blemish. He is my Lion of Judah and at the same time, my Lamb that took my punishment upon himself. Hope this explains/describes who Jesus is to me.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

OK, so Evangelical Presbyterian sounds fairly mainstream Christian, nothing too crazy. If you're down with the Nicean Creed you're not too out there.

I have just never heard of the Nicean creed understood as "Jesus is Yahweh." There is a lot of confusing stuff about The Trinity and "One Substance, Three Beings" and all those heresies about God created Jesus and on and on. I confess I never got a good grip on the nature of the Trinity but I'm pretty sure they never said that "Jesus is Yahweh." It's lots more subtle and tricksy than that.

I was raised up a good Mormon boy, somewhat studious of the Scriptures (The Bible (as far as it is translated correctly), The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants (a collection of revelations from God to Joseph Smith)).

Around the age of 18 they wanted me to go on a mission and I started asking a lot of questions about the inherent contradictions in Christianity. Mostly I got a lot of disapproval and a little hostility from my unanswerable questions. I couldn't buy the "Way of understanding Faith is to Close the Eye of REason." I'm a real Reason sort of fellow and get suspicious when they tell me that God wants me to set aside my reasoning powers.

Had some kind of Comparative Religion in school. Most recently my son was dating a Greek Orthodox scholarly type woman and heard a lot of their conversation and how vital the Nicean Creed is to credible Christianity.

It's all academic to me. I do not see any evidence or necessity for God in the Real World. Seems like left over ancient beliefs, trying to make sense of the world and natural phenomena before the light of Science started revealing how it all works. No need for God to explain thunder and lightning or disease or floods or any of those ancient mysteries.

And by the way, Mormons don't buy the whole Necean creed, say it's a corruption of ancient truths. Ancient Truths restored to the World by God's revelations to Joseph Smith.

So anyway, I'm not trying to advance my beliefs on you with my questions, just trying to understand some of the stuff you're saying. Christian beliefs are some kind of hobby for me. Like collecting stamps, endlessly fascinating in variety.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

http://www.christianfallacies.com/articles/sorsb/TrinityOneGodOrThree.html

[CaliforniaLiberal]

The Mormonism I was taught held that God the Father created our Spirit Bodies in the Preexistence, created in the sense that he procreated with his Spirit Body with multiple wive's Spirit Bodies who gave birth to our Spirit Bodies. Jesus was created as we all were and is our Elder Brother.

Then after the creation of the Earth we are born into Physical Bodies, Body and Spirit united for our existence here in Mortality. Jesus was born here like the rest of us, Spirit and Physical united. After death we go to Heaven as exhaled beings. If we follow the commandments and are worthy and stalwart we can eventually learn and progress and become Gods of our own Worlds and give birth to multitudes of Spirit Children and repeat the cycle.

There is no confusing subtlety in the Mormon Trinity. Jesus is God's son Spiritually and Physically.

Remember that I haven't been to church since the seventies and my memory is as faulty as any mortal man's. I have heard disturbing words that the LDS Church has shifted some of their doctrines a bit so this may not be current. My sister, passionate, devout Mormon and no doubt up to date told me that the Church has never taught that there is polygamy in the Afterlife. Not the way I remember it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Mormonism

13 Articles of Faith

Kids have to memorize these

https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/articles-of-faith

[Dezrat]

Not really sure as to what you mean but that is what I believe. Jesus is God, not a God but thee God. The same God before time existed is He (Jesus). The one that robed himself in flesh to become our perfect Lamb. One without spot or blemish. He is my Lion of Judah and at the same time, my Lamb that took my punishment upon himself. Hope this explains/describes who Jesus is to me.

I was, I guess, alluding to the actual lack of simplicity in that which can seem simple to those that believe. I believe there is indeed only one God, The one God of the OT is the one God of the NT, as Tertullian's words I here plagiarize describe:
"three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
I can't claim to fully understand the Triune nature of God, A God small enough to fit completely in my human mind wouldn't be a big enough God to save me. I just know the Word clearly puts it forth OT and NT, and I can believe it as much as I can the rest of God's Word.

[RAMCLAP]

You are correct. Mormons would not be orthodox. Therefore, Christ is a created being. But for the orthodox, it would be one essence(ouzio), and three persons(personae). God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

[eb47]

http://www.christianfallacies.com/ar...odOrThree.html

Did this doctrine not originate from the Roman empire?

[RAMCLAP]

Did this doctrine not originate from the Roman empire?

Can you expand on your question? Other than it originating during the time and inside the Roman Empire, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Sorry.

[Dezrat]

Did this doctrine not originate from the Roman empire?

I think I understand what you are saying. Should we view the Council of Constantinople as possessing any kind of authority? Certainly not. We should view the Scripture as our sole authority. But that doesn't mean that we must throw out the baby with the bath water. The Council of Constantinople didn't establish truth, but it did recognize some Scripturally established truth, such as the Doctrine of the Trinity.
ETA: The truth of the Triune Godhead is conspicuously put in front of us in Scripture. Maybe what we call "Doctrines" concerning such are our attempts to understand and explain it. Just a thought....

[CaliforniaLiberal]

Did this doctrine not originate from the Roman empire?

Far as I can tell all Christian doctrine is taken from pre-christian religions. All ancient religions borrowed from the ones that came before.

There are many hits on Google. Here's just one.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm

[RAMCLAP]

I think I understand what you are saying. Should we view the Council of Constantinople as possessing any kind of authority? Certainly not. We should view the Scripture as our sole authority. But that doesn't mean that we must throw out the baby with the bath water. The Council of Constantinople didn't establish truth, but it did recognize some Scripturally established truth, such as the Doctrine of the Trinity.
ETA: The truth of the Triune Godhead is conspicuously put in front of us in Scripture. Maybe what we call "Doctrines" concerning such are our attempts to understand and explain it. Just a thought....

You are correct. The council both at Nicea and Constantinople were called to address the early heresies. Gnosticism, and Arianism. Now, both of these ideas are far more complicated than what I'm discussing. But for the sake of this discussion, the councils were focusing on the deity of Christ. The Gnostics said Christ was pure God no man. The Arians said Christ was pure man no God. The councils solidified orthodoxy as Christ being 100% man, and 100% God. The God Man.

[WASR10]

Far as I can tell all Christian doctrine is taken from pre-christian religions. All ancient religions borrowed from the ones that came before.

There are many hits on Google. Here's just one.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm

Since the Abrahamic religions claim to be the religion of the creator of all life and history, it stands to reason that if it were so, the practices and teachings would be seen among many cultures and religions through out history. Christianity rejected or replaced a lot of doctrine from its direct predecessor. The beliefs that remained, however, were beliefs as old as religion itself.

It is usually a secular bias that puts the "copy-cat" label on the Eloah-based religions. Also, a great number of religious comparisons, such as those on the web-page linked above, usually contain many half-truths, untruths, and doctrinal or historical inaccuracies. This makes an honest or accurate comparison difficult.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

As a stalwart Mormon lad I was taught that God provided the One True Religion with all it's doctrines and rituals to each of the great prophets through the ages, starting with Adam. In each case, as centuries passed the people fell away from the Truth, changing and corrupting God's Original Religion.

And so when God once again restored His Religion to the Prophet Joseph Smith there were bits and pieces of the True Religion lying about here and there, altered, original meanings lost. So that when skeptics pointed out similarities between newly revealed Mormon ceremonies and the much older Freemason ceremonies it was clear that the Masons had left over, lost parts of the Old Religion that they used without understanding.

This explanation was one that set off my BS detector when I was first starting to question religion.