Sad Situation

[micro911]

2-3 complaints in 28 years?? I tip my hat to that sir! Did(does) your agency handle complaints themselves or do you guys have an outside independent whatever that does it?

Google OCC San Francisco and you'll see what I mean by outside whatever.

Simple complaints are investigated at the station level, and some more serious ones are investigated by the Internal Affairs. If the conduct is criminal in nature, it is investigated by the Internal Criminal Investigation Bureau. I guess some incidents are investigated by outside agency. I don't know exact procedures.

The complaints against me were investigated by the Lt and captain of my station. And, I was found not in violation of the department policy.

[micro911]

I am thinking why are these LEOs shooting so quickly? The LEOs here should have ordered the guy to drop his weapon from cover and given him enough time to do so. My feeling is that LEOs need to look at their procedure for contact and engagement. Even if these mistakes are statistically few, they are totally avoidable.

I have been to many officer involved shooting scenes to investigated the crime scene. Many times, the officers do not have time to be behind the cover to order the suspects to drop their weapons. They have to react quickly.

I believe it is a training issue for the most part. The problem is, when there is a budget crisis, the first thing they cut is training.

[A-J]

I have seen many threads on Calguns that people saying they don't trust police, and they don't call them.

That is heavy.. I have had maybe 2 or 3 citizen complaints including one from the National Organization for Women in my 28 years of service compared to many commendations. I will be gone in about a year, but hope situation gets better.

I don't know if everyone had bad experiences with police in person or they heard about it on TV or something. I hope the trust returns.. I trusted everyone of my fellow LEO's, who I worked with, with my life.

The problem is multi-fold, and neither side is willing to budge cause they both refuse to see the opposing view. I have several friends in various SoCal agencies, and in general I trust LEOs to do the job they are being paid to do. But my trust is not blind, and I do not automatically give LEOs a pass just because.

For those who are worried and don't believe that there is a huge disconnect between the cop haters here on Calguns and the real world.

http://www.latimes.com/local/politics/la-me-pol-poll-police-20140914-story.html

Overall, 82% of California voters agreed that local police have a tough job and for the most part do it well.

That article would be meaningful is it was 82% of Californians, but since we're talking about "voters" then it really isn't worth the time it took to write. It's well known that a significant portion of residents are not "voters" by any definition, therefore, 82% does not actually represent anything related to reality. Without even looking it up, I can almost guarantee that one single demographic will be heavily if not overly represented in that 82%.


Here in LA in the old days, the PD would show up, figure out the problem, and then hook up said problem and cart them off to jail as needed. Now it's roll up in force, every gets cuffed up, and lord help you if you resist, even if you're in the right. Cause Officer Safety.

[Citizen_B]

I have seen many threads on Calguns that people saying they don't trust police, and they don't call them.

That is heavy.. I have had maybe 2 or 3 citizen complaints including one from the National Organization for Women in my 28 years of service compared to many commendations. I will be gone in about a year, but hope situation gets better.

I don't know if everyone had bad experiences with police in person or they heard about it on TV or something. I hope the trust returns.. I trusted everyone of my fellow LEO's, who I worked with, with my life.

I think this is an important question. Thank you for your service and while I don't know you, I can tell from the issue you bring up that you genuinely care about the public.

I have family and friends that are current/retired LEOs. I know them all very well and honestly know they are great LEOs. I haven't had many official contacts with LE, but the majority of them were very positive. I don't remember how many. I haven't had any negative encounters personally. However I do remember two times were I was treated very rudely for what I think wasn't any good reason. Out of all those encounters, I remember those two well. It doesn't really bother me, but to some people with thinner skin I'm sure it would have ruined their day.

I understand the difficulty of the job engaging with the public all day and remaining professional under all types of circumstances. I also understand the camaraderie and tendency to band together as you guys share a difficult profession and as humans, sometimes make mistakes. I think this is where sometimes things can go wrong that jades public perception.

As with any organization, sometimes there are bad apples. I know of a couple of LEOs that "shouldn't be cops". These guys really ruin it for everyone, more than any other profession. A friend of mine got into a situation with a LEO. It was a minor infraction but the LEO flat out lied about the circumstances. I didn't see the whole set of events but I know it was a lie because I saw that portion. It wasn't a mistake on the LEOs part, it was a flat out lie to make his case. Friend's word vs. LEO. My friend filed a complaint but it went nowhere. Dash cam "wasn't turned on". Obviously he now has a negative/distrustful view of LEOs and he's told this story to I don't know how many other people.

Personally, the only thing that actually bugs me is selective enforcement of minor laws, not just under circumstance, but with people. Everyone breaks the law. I don't know of anyone who hasn't jaywalked, failed to come to a complete stop, or slipped a few MPH over the speed limit. A LEO determines who gets a ticket or not. For the most part, none of my LEO friends/family get tickets and I know if I name drop I might get a warning also (but I don't). So for average Joe citizen, it becomes a situational awareness game of trying not to jaywalk in front of a LEO, or slowing down in known speed trap areas. It's not just the fine of the infraction. A moving violation can negatively effect car insurance premiums and that translates into real dollars, for something minor and selectively enforced. Just the way the world turns I suppose.

I think what has changed a lot over the years is the sensitivity of people feeling 'wronged' and the access technology has provided to start public outrage which quickly and widely spreads distrust. With everything now being recorded, LEOs have to be spot on with the law and their behavior with the public, yet they are human and makes mistakes like anyone else. The circle makes everyone suspicious of everyone else by default. Fear of lawsuits etc. I don't think there is any easy answer. My own opinion is that LE has to get in front of public opinion and do much more engagement with the public to gain their trust and show that everyone's on the same team. Show that agencies have effective channels in place for citizens to file complaints and that they are treated fairly. Sure this may be a new scope and budgets are tight. Perhaps this isn't a new problem, but I think it's an important one. Thank you for bringing it up. Just my two cents.

[TRICKSTER]

Trickster NEVER dismissed EVERYONE in his post you quoted. His post was articulate and respectful. He simply brought out some entities that we all know are on here, NOT everyone. Twisting the meaning of people's posts doesn't do anybody any good.

Apparently in StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca's world, a "small, vocal, core of individuals" and "some" is EVERYONE to him.

[TRICKSTER]

That article would be meaningful is it was 82% of Californians, but since we're talking about "voters" then it really isn't worth the time it took to write. It's well known that a significant portion of residents are not "voters" by any definition, therefore, 82% does not actually represent anything related to reality. Without even looking it up, I can almost guarantee that one single demographic will be heavily if not overly represented in that 82%.[/B]

But a poll on Calguns OT is meaningful, an accurate representation of reality?
After all, that was the comparison being made.

[CSACANNONEER]

I am not a LEO. I trust and respect people who trust and respect me. I trust and respect individual LEOs until they give me a reason not to.

[Untamed1972]

Dismissing everyone who doesn't trust or is critical of the Police as "sovereign citizens, gangbangers, cop haters, dopers and criminals" isn't really helpful if your objective is to restore trust. I am none of the things you described unless wanting to see bad officers held accountable makes me a cop hater. If so then I am proud of that title. I have never been arrested, possess a secret security clearance, don't look like a dirt bag, no tickets for over 20 years, not even a tattoo. Contrary to popular belief, people can have legitimate grievances without being in the derogatory classifications you described.

Concur. I have first hand, very legitimate reasons for generally not trusting LE. Is it just a few bad apples.....or are a good majority of the apples at least a little bad and it's really just a luck of the draw as to which one you get to deal with today? And I'm sorry.....but 100% of that blame lays squarely on the shoulders of LE as a profession. It's always a tough thing to tie collecting your paycheck to doing the right thing, when doing the right thing could cost you your paycheck.

[TRICKSTER]

Concur. I have first hand, very legitimate reasons for generally not trusting LE. Is it just a few bad apples.....or are a good majority of the apples at least a little bad and it's really just a luck of the draw as to which one you get to deal with today? And I'm sorry.....but 100% of that blame lays squarely on the shoulders of LE as a profession. It's always a tough thing to tie collecting your paycheck to doing the right thing, when doing the right thing could cost you your paycheck.

Have you worked as a LEO? I was never put in a situation where "doing the right thing" put my job at risk, in fact it was always the opposite. I find it interesting how so many people with zero to little experience as a LEO think that they know how every police department and officer works.

[omgwtfbbq]

What LE needs more of, is COPS (Community Oriented Policing) at the station level. We have strayed from that very effective philosophy, mostly because of budget cuts.

We have some leaders that think we're going to arrest our way out of all our issues. Not a chance.

We need to get back to the grass roots community efforts. This does three things. It regains trust, promotes communication and gives the people/cops a true understanding of what goes on from each other's perspective. Transparency and understanding are bi-products of this and will reduce frustration when delicate/controversial issues arise.

QFT. Took the words out of my mouth.

The issue with the overall public perception of LE is that there is an information bias on the part of those who by virtue of personal experience, media reports, and or popular culture have come to distrust LEOs. They only look for evidence that supports their preconceived ideas about the corruption of LE. So they stories about the officer who volunteers at the food bank or coaches community sports don't get any consideration, only the stories about misconduct.

If we could afford to do community policing it would take a lot away from those people who seek only to see the bad and never the good aspects of the LE community.

[1CavScout]

The problem with community oriented policing where I worked, is that it took away from actual people responding to calls. They cut patrol units in order to fund more COPPS positions.

The COPPS units were also a well known place for slugs to go hide and do the bare minimum to collect their paychecks. Some of the people did good work, but most were slugs IMO.

If I worked in a slow city where we were not backed up calls 24/7 I might me more supportive. I would have rather had those bodies in a black and white responding to calls.

[Citizen_B]

The problem with community oriented policing where I worked, is that it took away from actual people responding to calls. They cut patrol units in order to fund more COPPS positions.

The COPPS units were also a well known place for slugs to go hide and do the bare minimum to collect their paychecks. Some of the people did good work, but most were slugs IMO.

If I worked in a slow city where we were not backed up calls 24/7 I might me more supportive. I would have rather had those bodies in a black and white responding to calls.

This is exactly why it doesn't happen more, even when it's an important, proactive, long-term effect activity. Reactionary instead of getting in front of it.

The extra salt in the wound is some departments still refuse to issue CCW permits, even in the face of ongoing agency budget cuts (never mind the constitutionality aspect).

[micro911]

My concern is that I see more increasing number of people really HATE law enforcement, and they say they will never call police. They are saying they will handle situations themselves.

Maybe we are going backwards toward the old western times.

[Untamed1972]

My concern is that I see more increasing number of people really HATE law enforcement, and they say they will never call police. They are saying they will handle situations themselves.

Maybe we are going backwards toward the old western times.

LE were never meant to be babysitters, or the parents, teachers, ministers and mentors of their community. That was supposed to be done by the parents, teachers, ministers and mentors of their community.

In reality.....LE was only supposed to be there when you had an actual bad guy who needed to be dealt with. Problem is we're asking LE to cover roles in the community they were never meant to cover, and in all honestly will never be able to cover given all the factors involved.

[pacrat]

Untamed1972's quote of,

It's always a tough thing to tie collecting your paycheck to doing the right thing, when doing the right thing could cost you your paycheck.

Holds truth. But as with all things, is not always applicable to every given situation or officer.

recent examples.........

Several respected Deputies in LASD did what they knew to be the right thing. They followed orders. For doing the right thing, they were hung out to dry by their superiors, who gave them the orders they followed. They not only lost their paychecks and pensions. They and their families were dragged from their homes in the wee hrs of the morning, cuffed and made to sit on the lawn while their homes were searched. All for a lame a** FBI photo op. Now they are convicted felons.

Couple days ago a LAPD SGT was publicly chastized by a minor Celebutard for doing his job exactly as he should have. And followed proper procedures under the circumstances.

For a Celebutard there is no such thing as "Bad Publicity". Same is not true of LE. Bias Stream Media [BSM] Never misses a chance to sensationalize a percieved slight or possible wrong done by LE.

Said Celebutard, refused a reasonable request by LE to identify herself. Yet, immediately afterward she was on BSM and FaceButt screaming about how SHE had been wronged. No problem identifying her then. Her scam worked perfectly. Even if the Sgt is relieved of any wrong doing. He was cast in a bad public light by BSM, and she got her few days of fame.

TRICKSTER said,

Have you worked as a LEO? I was never put in a situation where "doing the right thing" put my job at risk, in fact it was always the opposite. I find it interesting how so many people with zero to little experience as a LEO think that they know how every police department and officer works.

Thank goodness that is so. Because in this divisive "us v them" BSM fueled environment. Even solid by the book good guys can find themselves targeted by an unwarranted crapstorm of possible career ruining public accusations.

I also find a lot of truth in your last sentence. That is why as an "Informed Citizen". When one of these BSM crapstorms appear. Before I form an opinion about the circumstances. I always ask my friends who are actually active LE what their take is. I may not always agree with them. But I do respect their views and take them into consideration. And their views carry more weight with me than some celebutard talking head's.

JM2c