LAPD Off-Duty Carry

[TIMEREGAINED]

I own a Glock 19 and and HK P2000 with a LEM v2 trigger. They are, in my opinion, nothing similar. A Smith M&P and a Glock 19 is more similar, but still have differences. The Beretta 92f and a D/A Smith function a lot alike, which is why my off duty/backup gun was a Smith 669 because it functioned a lot like my duty 92f.

I currently own Beretta 92f x2, Smith 669, Smith M&P 9, 9c, and 45, Ruger LCP, Ruger LC9, Glock 19 x2, and HK P2000. This does not include the revolvers I own. I stay profficient with all, but for LEOSA I only have to qualify once a year on a pistol and revolver of my choice to be able to carry them. Since I'm retired, I can choose any handgun I want, because the department doesn't assume any liability if I get in a shooting. I still carry the department authorized ammo in my 9's and .45's because in addition to being able to buy it at a decent price thru the department, it is great ammo. (Winchester T Series for 9 and .45, Speer Gold Dot for .38). I just wish I could buy more tan 100 RDS of each caliber per year so I could practice more.

This was so very, very informative. Thank you for the write up.

I wonder what the department(s) would state on approval of an LEM variant pistol?

[URBAN COMMANDO]

authorized off duty carry

http://www.lapdonline.org/lapd_equipment

[TIMEREGAINED]

authorized off duty carry

http://www.lapdonline.org/lapd_equipment

Very neat, organized page.

What are the chances of LAPD permitting the authorization of another common LE modern pistol as off-duty carry? Something highly tested, etc.

[Ron-Solo]

From LASD Manual of Policy and Procedures:

As of May 4th, 2011

LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF’S DEPARTMENT

AUTHORIZED WEAPONS

AUTOLOADERS – 9 mm ONDUTY

Beretta 92F series - including compact and Vertec models

(92F, 92FC, 92FM, 92F Vertec)

Beretta 90-TWO

Heckler & Koch P2000 LEM [double action only trigger]

SIG SAUER P226 - with double action / single action (DA/SA) trigger. Approved models include: P226, P226 Blackwater, P226 Elite, P226 Elite Stainless, P226 Navy, P226 Platinum Elite, P226 SCT, P226 Tactical, P226 Two-tone

SIG SAUER P229 - with double action / single action (DA/SA) trigger.

Approved models include P229, P229 Elite, P229Elite Stainless, P229 Platinum Elite, P229 SCT, P229 Two-tone


Smith and Wesson M&P 9MM pistol (17 round magazine) without magazine disconnect and without manual thumb safety.


AUTOLOADERS – 9 mm OFFDUTY

All Smith & Wesson EXCEPT Sigma Series, SW99

Approved models must have:

• Decocking/safety lever must be on the slide

• Must have external hammer

• Must function like the Beretta 92F – double & single action trigger

Heckler & Koch P7M8,

Heckler & Koch P7M13

Heckler & Koch P9S

Heckler & Koch P2000SK LEM [double action only trigger]

Beretta Cougar 8000F

Smith and Wesson M&P 9MM compact (12 round magazine) without magazine disconnect and without manual thumb safety.

REVOLVERS

Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Colt

• Five or six shot

• 2" to 6" barrel

• 357 frames o.k., MUST shoot .38 ammo only

AUTOLOADERS -- .45 ON DUTY

Smith & Wesson 4506, 4566, 457, & Smith & Wesson pistols with:

• Decocking/safety lever must be on the slide

• Must have external hammer

• Must function like the Beretta 92F – double & single action trigger

• Magazine capacity of at least 7 rounds

Heckler & Koch USP45 - Variant 1 or 2

Heckler & Koch USP45 Compact

Ruger P90

Beretta Cougar 8045F

SIG SAUER P220 - double action / single action (DA/SA) trigger & magazine capacity of at least 7 rounds.

Approved models include: P220,P220 Beavertail,P220 Carry, P220 Carry Elite, P220 Carry Elite Stainless, P220 Carry two-tone, P220 Carry Equinox, P220 Combat, P220 Elite, P220 Elite Stainless, P220 Equinox, P220 Match, P220 Platinum Elite, P220 Two-tone

AUTOLOADERS OFF DUTY 45 ACP

Smith & Wesson 4513TSW, CS45 & Smith & Wesson pistols with:

• Decocking/safety lever must be on the slide

• Must have external hammer

• Must function like the Beretta 92F – double & single action trigger

• Magazine capacity of less than 7 rounds

Beretta Cougar 8045FC



According to a friend, they are looking at the Ruger LC9 as a possible back up/off duty gun.

[SoCalDep]

LASD is dropping the Beretta 92FS and SLOOOOWLY issuing full size M&P's. Several academy classes have been issued the M&P's now. The rest of the dept will slowly transition by turning in their Berettas or offering the deps to purchase them for personal ownership. I understand they're issuing them with five 17 round magazines and a laser/light combo + holster.

No laser. Light only as issue, though a laser would be an option after taking the laser class. The new holster was developed specifically to fit the CTC lasergrips for both right and left hand users. If you go with a TLR2 or X400 (etc) you'll have to find your own holster. A couple guys tested a particular 6280 holster for the Sig and found it fit the M&P with the X400.

[CalCop]

Dept can't tell you what not to carry

Myth – Only LEOs with agency permission can carry off-duty under LEOSA.

• September 2007: Federal corrections officer prosecuted on disciplinary charges by the Bureau of Prisons for carrying a handgun off-duty without permission and for misusing his agency identification. Administrative Judge dismissed both charges. Court found that the officer did not need agency approval to carry under LEOSA. It also found that the officer only used the identification, but not to secure privileges unavailable to the general public. (Davis v. Dept of Justice, 2007 Merit System Protection Board Lexis 5609, 2007)

• Representative Scott proposed a provision that LEOSA shall not be construed to supersede or limit the rules, regulations, policies, or practices of any State or local law enforcement agency. This amendment was defeated by a vote of 11 yeas to 21 nays. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong, 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 7)

• An officer trained only to use a firearm in a correctional setting but not trained to carry one on-duty, and not allowed to carry off-duty, is still covered by LEOSA if they meet all requirements of LEOSA. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong., 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 53-62)

• “The protection provided by LEOSA is simply not reduced or eliminated because an otherwise qualified officer fails to obtain permission from his department to use the weapon; (People v. Drew Peterson)

• CA DOJ says, “On-duty restrictions placed by the department appear to be permissible. Off-duty restrictions appear to be superceded by this Act.”

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf

• FBI says: “It is unclear whether LEOSA overrides an agency's ability to limit an officer's authority to carry a personally owned handgun off duty as part of off-duty restriction policies. Some agencies have continued to enforce such policies. Arguably, because LEOSA explicitly overrides state law provisions (except those addressing state facilities and property), and the head of an executive agency is given power by way of state law, it would appear that LEOSA would override off duty restriction policies. However, agencies with such a policy and officers working within these agencies should seek guidance and clarification in regard to the legality of such policies.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/january2011/off_duty_firearms

• FOP says: “If you are a qualified active law enforcement officer, you are legally able to carry a firearm under 18 USC 926B. There may be agencies which enforce or adopt policies, rules, regulations, or employment conditions which discourage or punish officers which choose to carry while off-duty,
but such actions do not mean that the officer cannot carry lawfully under the provisions of this statute. Your agency, however, can prohibit you from carrying your agency-issued weapon, which is the property of the governmental entity. http://www.fop.net/legislative/issue...8/hr218faq.pdf

[Ron-Solo]

See how that works for you when you get in a shooting and because you were carrying an unauthorized firearm your agency washes their hands of you.......

LEOSA was not intended to stop a LEA from enacting policy regarding types of firearms to be carried. Many facets of LEOSA are untested. Do you want to be te test case?

[CalCop]

LEOSA was not intended to stop a LEA from enacting policy regarding types of firearms to be carried.

I don't know about that. During LEOSA construction the following occurred:
Representative Scott proposed a provision that LEOSA shall not be construed to supersede or limit the rules, regulations, policies, or practices of any State or local law enforcement agency. This amendment was defeated by a vote of 11 yeas to 21 nays. (H.R. Rep. No. 560, 108th Cong, 2nd Sess. 2004 p. 7)

[TIMEREGAINED]

Aside from rules, regulations, policies, liabilities, procedures, norms, tradition, thick stacks of bureaucratic BS, I only brought up this subject because the irony of it is that being a LEO in some departments seems that you are granted a "diet-CCW" or "CCW Light" as you are wholly restricted on what you can carry and what doesn't make sense to me, yet, is that some states grant more access and choice of weapon the CCW holder than some departments do to the trained LEO!

[TripleThreat]

Exactly.

Putting it another way, a 100 year old untrained, run of the mill Grandmother in Oregon can purchase (on-the-spot) and carry concealed weapons that some California LEO's would loose their job for merely looking at.

[TIMEREGAINED]

Exactly.

Putting it another way, a 100 year old untrained, run of the mill Grandmother in Oregon can purchase (on-the-spot) and carry concealed weapons that some California LEO's would loose their job for merely looking at.

Now, my point is being delivered. Correct.

And, I do believe that this is as much 'departmental' as it is a 'California' thing.

I cannot imagine many PDs in gun-friendly states going by these nonsensical restrictions.

[retired]

I only wish the dept. allowed the various and numerous handguns shown in the post by Ron. When I was on (I hired on two years before Ron and retired 8yrs. prior to him).

IIRC, we were allowed to purchase the H&K USP .45 and we could carry the Beretta Cougar off duty. No lights or lasers. Since I liked my 92f, which I bought when I retired, I stayed with it for on duty use. Since the Cougar is not an easily concealed pistol and they wouldn't let us buy the Mini Cougar, I stayed with my 5 shot .38cal. S&W Model 60.

I'm a bit envious of the deputies on the dept. who now have such a wide range of choices for firearms and accessories. I am also happy for them that they do.

[URBAN COMMANDO]

every department has there own rules

[TIMEREGAINED]

every department has there own rules

Clear and understandable.

But I'm herein pointing at the idea that all rules trickle down from somewhere and in this case from the umbrella of strict California gun laws.

If this were a gun-friendly state you could probably carry whatever you wanted at your side in your department.

In some way, the department's authorized list is no different that the State of California's approved firearm list.

[Ron-Solo]

Nope. Nothing to do with California's draconian gun laws.

It's about training and liability.

My son-in-law is with a large police department in Arizona, an obviously gun friendly state. Their rules are stricter than LAPD/LASD combined.