Traffic stop, loaded handgun in plain view

[pepsi2451]

"Pointing guns at people who haven't broken laws" has a biased connotation to it. Remember the point of a detention is to determine if a law has been broken. Officers don't need to "know" a law has been broken, but merely suspect as such, and have a set of facts to support the suspicion. You may know you haven't broken any laws, but until the officer completes his/her investigation, they don't know that. Pointing a gun at a suspect has nothing to do with whether or not someone has "broken any laws," and more to do with the potential risk involved in the particular detention.

Like I said, I get where you are coming from but I still don't agree with treating people like criminals just because they have a gun in the open. You say "Officers don't need to "know" a law has been broken, but merely suspect as such, and have a set of facts to support the suspicion." I don't really see how having a rifle in plain view is enough to suspect a law has been broken. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm not a cop and apparently most cops on here think it is reason enough.

Not all LEO think like this though. I have been pulled over with rifles and the CHP didn't seem to care. Erik_26 said in his post he has had a similar experience. Hitman13 said in AZ they won't automatically force you out of the car at gun point.

So what is the difference? I really don't believe the cops detaining people at gun point are doing it maliciously. In an area where carrying rifle isn't as common it might be reasonable to assume they have committed a crime. The problem is how can that ever change? Law abiding people can't start carrying rifles in these areas because they will be detained at gun point. They can't try to get the law changed because its not against the law.

I just think its sad the way things are going. As a gun owner I feel like I am losing just a little bit more of my freedom and there is nothing I can do about it.

[SWalt]

A person can speak politely or yell like a jerk. I think that's what SWalt was getting at. Don't be so sensitive.

Correct. You beat me to it. I think he didn't like "spouting off that its my right, but being reasonable and rational" as if someone standing up for 2A rights makes him unreasonable and irrational. But if you get all pissed off and start insulting, yelling or whatever, does that get the LEO on your side? It sure won't make him feel empathy towards you and just make him think "well F U too bud, now I'm going to get out my fine tooth comb". The original thread was about not being confrontational at all but just being law abiding other than the gun in plain view.

[Che762x39]

20+ years ago I heard a few times that some LEO's wouldn't do anything if they pulled you over and you announced you had a loaded firearm within reach and in plain view. I don't know if it was true then and just the way it was in a different time and a different CA, so my question is:

What would your response be today given....

You will be having a burrito for tonight's dinner at the jail.

[Bodei]

Yeah we do, didn't your department give you the ESP/X-Ray vision implants when you got hired?

I only got the glasses that let me know a personnel complaint is coming. The glasses flash "Turn on your video/audio recorder NOW"

[Bodei]

Like I said, I get where you are coming from but I still don't agree with treating people like criminals just because they have a gun in the open. You say "Officers don't need to "know" a law has been broken, but merely suspect as such, and have a set of facts to support the suspicion." I don't really see how having a rifle in plain view is enough to suspect a law has been broken. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm not a cop and apparently most cops on here think it is reason enough.

Not all LEO think like this though. I have been pulled over with rifles and the CHP didn't seem to care. Erik_26 said in his post he has had a similar experience. Hitman13 said in AZ they won't automatically force you out of the car at gun point.

So what is the difference? I really don't believe the cops detaining people at gun point are doing it maliciously. In an area where carrying rifle isn't as common it might be reasonable to assume they have committed a crime. The problem is how can that ever change? Law abiding people can't start carrying rifles in these areas because they will be detained at gun point. They can't try to get the law changed because its not against the law.

I just think its sad the way things are going. As a gun owner I feel like I am losing just a little bit more of my freedom and there is nothing I can do about it.

Hey you can drive around my town with an unloaded rifle in a gun rack all you want but if you do it somewhere else, you're gonna get hassled. THIS IS NOTHING NEW! 40 years ago it would happen as well. Hell, 130 years ago it would happen! Did you ever watch Tombstone? Remember why they shot and killed all those guys at the OK Corral? Cause they didn't obey the city ordinance against carrying firearms. These guys were the original Open Carry Martyrs and they got wasted! Why? Cause they were dirtbags and didn't go along with the program. If Wyatt Earp tells you to remove your firearm (at gunpoint), just do it! Some things never change. (begin replies with "I'm your huckleberry"...in 3,2,1)

[Notorious]

You will be having a burrito for tonight's dinner at the jail.

Is that an euphemism or you talking about really eating dinner at the jail?

[pepsi2451]

Hey you can drive around my town with an unloaded rifle in a gun rack all you want but if you do it somewhere else, you're gonna get hassled. THIS IS NOTHING NEW! 40 years ago it would happen as well. Hell, 130 years ago it would happen! Did you ever watch Tombstone? Remember why they shot and killed all those guys at the OK Corral? Cause they didn't obey the city ordinance against carrying firearms. These guys were the original Open Carry Martyrs and they got wasted! Why? Cause they were dirtbags and didn't go along with the program. If Wyatt Earp tells you to remove your firearm (at gunpoint), just do it! Some things never change. (begin replies with "I'm your huckleberry"...in 3,2,1)

But like you said tombstone had a city ordinance. Also, I don't have any problem with stopping dirtbags at gunpoint. I was refering to the people saying they will detain at gunpoint anyone that has a rifle in plain view. I don't think just because someone has a rifle they should be treated like a dirtbag.

[Notorious]

Do I agree, yes.

Is it reality, no.

Unfortunately, the media has painted everyone that has a gun as either a cop or a criminal. There is no middle ground really. Ask yourself the same question. If you saw someone in plain clothes walking down the street with a gun on his hip, you would think, probably a cop. If you saw someone in plain clothes with a non-LE type rifle (AK, Mosin Nagant, etc.) walking around, you would probably not think cop... your internal alarm would go off as well.

[pepsi2451]

Do I agree, yes.

Is it reality, no.

Unfortunately, the media has painted everyone that has a gun as either a cop or a criminal. There is no middle ground really. Ask yourself the same question. If you saw someone in plain clothes walking down the street with a gun on his hip, you would think, probably a cop. If you saw someone in plain clothes with a non-LE type rifle (AK, Mosin Nagant, etc.) walking around, you would probably not think cop... your internal alarm would go off as well.

The media does try to paint everyone that has a gun as either a cop or criminal but I would have thought cops that hang out on a pro gun forum would know better.

You say there is no middle ground but don't I hear the cops on here all the time saying everything isn't always black and white? Gun = criminal or cop seems like a pretty black and white way of thinking to me.

If I saw someone walking around with a gun I wouldn't call the cops unless there was more to the story (him acting violent, intoxicated, crazy, ect...). I sure wouldn't pull a gun on him.

I do want to be clear that I didn't support UOC of pistols for political reasons and I don't support the UOC of rifles for political reasons. I agree with most people here that it wont do anything to help gun rights.

I wasn't really talking about people walking around with a rifle, although I don't think they should be automatically treated like a criminal either. I was referring to the people that said they would pull someone over and force them from their car at gun point for no other reason then someone else reported seeing gun in their vehicle.

[Notorious]

I'm not saying how a cop here would feel... but to the average citizen, which outnumber cops here by a margin of... oh... 10,000+ to 1... their reaction would be pretty much what I think it would be when they see a gun in public.

As for pulling someone over with a gun exposed who is not otherwise acting hinky... I would not necessarily prone them out but I sure would be on heightened alert and made sure they didn't touch the gun or even make any movements of any sort without me telling them to do something.

I might not be pointing my own weapon at them from the outset but you can bet that my weapon will be out of the holster and either behind my leg or beside my leg while I was giving them directions on what to do to ensure mutual safety. Then when either the gun was secured or he was secured, then we can do our business.

[pepsi2451]

I'm not saying how a cop here would feel... but to the average citizen, which outnumber cops here by a margin of... oh... 10,000+ to 1... their reaction would be pretty much what I think it would be when they see a gun in public.

Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post. I agree the average citizen might be uncomfortable seeing a gun. They aren't detaining people at gun point though.

[kb58]

On a somewhat related note...

Say I'm driving home from the gun range. Firearms are in a locked box, all nice and legal. If I get pulled over, is it wise to even mention their presence? They'd be in a box/case/bag, so they aren't openly displayed, but the officer may notice the box or rifle bag.

I'm just asking because I can see both sides of the issue. If I don't say anything, am I "hiding something?" Or, if I do say something, will the officer wonder why I'd go out of my way to mention it and by doing so makes him suspicious?

So that's my question, mention it, or don't bother?

[SWalt]

Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post. I agree the average citizen might be uncomfortable seeing a gun. They aren't detaining people at gun point though.

I can understand your questioning of "why"? Why draw on someone who isn't a threat and obeying the law. IMO, it really boils down to officer safety. If there is a possibility , however so slight, of a dangerous situation their goal is to go home safely. I try to look at things from different angles other than my own and it one of the reasons I posted the original question. I learned a lot and had other things reenforced. The best we can do is learn from the posts and realize the different factors. Put the answers into your store of knowledge in your mind. I can see the civil rights issue clearly, I've never been arrested, not a criminal, no record, try to treat people as I expect to be treated, but the reality of the matter is different. Just think in your own life of the people you knew through all your years that weren't trust worthy or worse. You knew them and which ones to stay away from. LEO doesn't know any info about you, so they error on the side of caution. Like Notorious just said, "...while I was giving them directions on what to do to ensure mutual safety..." Notice he said "mutual", its for all concerned.

[biochembruin]

But like you said tombstone had a city ordinance. Also, I don't have any problem with stopping dirtbags at gunpoint. I was refering to the people saying they will detain at gunpoint anyone that has a rifle in plain view. I don't think just because someone has a rifle they should be treated like a dirtbag.

I don't think you get it. Officers don't point guns at people because they're "dirtbags." Officers draw their guns because of the potential risk involved with a detention. The action has been deemed reasonable my courts numerous times. The fact that it offends someone is irrelevant. The same could be said of many other police actions, such as handcuffing or ordering someone to stop.

I was once taken out of a car at gunpoint because I informed the officer I had a gun on me. I was handcuffed until the officer verified my work ID. I didn't want to reach for my ID and hand it to the officer because it was close to my gun. Once my ID was verified, I was free to go. I never felt offended because the officer had his gun out, or handcuffed me, or ordered me to my knees. I know the reason he did it had nothing to do with me being a "dirtbag."

[Che762x39]

Is that an euphemism or you talking about really eating dinner at the jail?

Roger that. Thursday night dinner was that microwaved burrito. Most regulars did their best to avoid being arrested on Thursdays if they did not have bail money.