Traffic stop, loaded handgun in plain view

[Notorious]

If the guy is trying but not all the way there, that's different than a guy who just says I know it's wrong... what'cha gonna do?

[BigDogatPlay]

So about 18 years ago, as one example, I made a car stop one night. In plain sight on the front seat was a loaded revolver. I saw it before I said my first word to him. His hands were on the steering wheel and never left it. Told him I saw the gun and that if he reached for it I'd kill him. Got him out of the car, cuffed him, a quick frisk and then into the back seat of my car. He was cooperative all the way.

Gun was not stolen. Guy was decent enough, no previous adverse actions, and said he just felt like he needed protection. He left with a citation for loaded gun in public and for the original violation. There've been other similar instances I was involved in where the person involved got booked.

[SWalt]

SWalt, what would you do if you pulled someone over and see a loaded gun on the front seat? Would you trust him and start a conversation? Hey, nice gun, what kind is it? Wanna check mine out? Maybe we can go get a donut around the corner and talk ammo? Yes I would treat it as a felony stop. No cop will place a gun in plain view or someone who knows how to handle guns for that matter. One who places a gun in plain view is a dumb *****, a show off and just wants to attract attention. There's no such thing as a 100% all the time. If there is cause for an arrest, heck yeah. If he's just an idiot showing off, there will be educating involved telling him how much of an idiot he is.

Wish I knew how to separate quotes, my answers would be more comprehensible. anyways....

As a non LEO, my scenario would be different. If I walked up to someone sitting in a vehicle who had a gun in plain view on the passenger seat, a middle aged man or woman, not alarmed at my presence and acting normal? My senses and alert level would automatically go up and pay much closer attention, but I wouldn't run away screaming without cause too. I would keep the conversation short if there was any hint this is some psycho about to explode and leave, while keeping in mind a possible dangerous situation. But they are acting normal? Just be aware. If I had CCW/carrying and walked up, my reaction would be the same. Except if it was a psycho about to explode, I would have means to protect myself and would be thinking "whats my red line, what if he reaches, wheres cover, how do I get the advantage, etc" along with an huge "ohhhhhh f...!!!!!!!" Now if I walked up to a car load of tatted g bangers, I would be questioning my own sanity. Not a good idea.

If I was a LEO, I would act along the lines of what you described but wouldn't present but definitely my hand on my sidearm and seek advantage. Given the scenario; hands on wheel, acting normal, etc that is. Ask them to carefully and slowly get out of the car, search, plant their butt on hood of my cruiser, don't move an inch, while I secure the weapon, then question.

I wouldn't always assume they are trying to show off, being a tough guy "look at me, i'm armed, its an extension of my penis", or whatever. Yeah, I know people can be like that but not all. Could be a 4' 9" 95lbs woman who knows she is completely disadvantaged or just a regular guy who rather be prepared. All different reasons but self defense/ being prepared are among them.

But saying "theres no such thing as 100% all the time" tells me there could be some discretion and not always "hook em and book em" which is good to hear. I would expect a stern "what the f... are you thinking, don't you know..." lecture would follow, especially here in CA. The law is the law and I expect it would be my damn lucky day if I was pulled over with a loaded gun and allowed to leave with it still in my possession. Other states (AZ, AK come to mind) allow loaded open carry in vehicles and LEO's deal with it all the time.

Thanks for answering my question, anything else you want to add or any other LEO wants to add to this, feel free. Just all hypothetical.

[SWalt]

I would have to go by the letter of the law if for no other reason other than the liability factor of not going by the law. The average Joe who is fine right now during the stop can very well go into a stop n rob and shoot up the place... or shoot at a car in a road rage incident. Who knows. I don't know the guy and some felons out there are mighty fine actors. When he gets arrested later, records will show you pulled him over earlier and I let him go on his way.

At the minimum, you will get asked if you knew anything or saw anything strange during that contact. I am not going to lie about it and I will have to say I saw his gun and let him go... so rather than be forced into that situation, I do what I have to do, whether or not I agree with the whole scenario.

That's the crappy part of losing your discretion in the job because people don't lend themselves to be trusted... and I know about your old days because cops back then really are more laid back because they could be without every IAD happy climber or sue happy citizen or media sensation whore getting all over him for every little thing. Not anymore in this day and age. We reap what we sow.

Another way of looking at it. CA has changed from what it use to be in many ways and I can understand your points. Thanks

[SWalt]

....On the other hand.....

How a LEO on here might perceive the question is that someone is trying to get a LEO to say it is ok to break the law. And that is just not going to happen. I don't think any of our Calgun LEOs would ever say (even though they might look the other way once in a great while under special circumstances) that they would.

I thought about that too when I didn't see any responses. So I tried to change it to a hypothetical in other posts. Its not my intention in the least. I would hope no one on this forum would think my posts or any other posts construes in anyway as advocating loaded open carry in a vehicle is ok. Its NOT ALLOWED IN CA. Hence my other post where I explained how I actually do transport a firearm(s) in my vehicle.

[Lives_In_Fresno]

Another thing to consider is that once the LEO sees the plain view loaded gun (if it isn't concealed, having a CCW permit might not be enough, either), he now may have enough probable cause to search the interior of your vehicle, which absent other circumstances, probably isn't the case for just a traffic stop. Do you want him doing that?

In my car, the LEO wouldn't find anything, but he also wouldn't find a gun in plain view.

[SWalt]

Another thing to consider is that once the LEO sees the plain view loaded gun (if it isn't concealed, having a CCW permit might not be enough, either), he now probably has the right to search the interior of your vehicle. Do you want him doing that?

In my car, the LEO wouldn't find anything, but he also wouldn't find a gun in plain view.

You're right, I do believe it would be probable cause. No different from seeing any other illegal object in plain view. They wouldn't find anything else in my vehicle either.

One of the reasons I put "in plain view" is its not hidden or concealed, as if someone is trying to hide it and get away with it.

None of this is meant to be a "I got ya", "A LEO told me that I could do this" but get more of a general idea of how LEO's would handle the situation today vs yesteryear.

Any other LEO's want to chime in?

[brokntrigr]

if you have a gun and DO NOT have a CCW or LEO, keep your gun locked and in the trunk with ammo in a separate area in the car. Don't be stupid and test the cop. You'll be at the losing end.

[steve92407]

I am from the old days of le when sheriff Frank Bland SBSO instilled in me that joe citizen went home and the bad guys took a back seat.I worked every shift for that felony arrest.
That is absolutely true 20+ years ago we would look the other way and were given a great amount of discretion to JOE citizen.
Many people make mistakes.Color of the law not letter of the law is what a mature officer should base his decisions.
Oh,and brokntrigr i have never detained a credentialed officer to run him.I would if he was involved in an investigation.I have never heard of this common courtesy and would fail your attitude check.

[brokntrigr]

Steve92407- That was 20 years ago when I started I did the same thing. My partner, great cop, did the same thing we all would have done. He did not to a records check with a guy He pulled over (cop) cause he showed him his credentials and said he had a gun. The cop said everything to the letter. Little did my ex partner know the cop he pulled over had just shot his wife and 2 kids (I won't mention what county but it's close to where you are) and there was a want for him that was already in the system. If my ex partner knew what the cop he had just pulled over did, he would have been in handcuffs. Don't take it against me if I do stuff by the book. The rules are there because some did something stupid.

[steve92407]

Extremely sad to hear. no bolo at the shift briefing or over the air?

[SWalt]

I am from the old days of le when sheriff Frank Bland SBSO instilled in me that joe citizen went home and the bad guys took a back seat.I worked every shift for that felony arrest.
That is absolutely true 20+ years ago we would look the other way and were given a great amount of discretion to JOE citizen.
Many people make mistakes.Color of the law not letter of the law is what a mature officer should base his decisions....

Thanks Steve...I knew I wasn't completely crazy. I Googled Sheriff Bland and he would be in the time period when I was told some would look away. Late 70's. I'm bet you have some stories to tell but it seems today its about the letter of the law and maybe a little bit discretion.. Thats what I gather so far.

[brokntrigr]

No BOLO's. From what my partner said, he saw I on TV as he was about to sign off that night, then he checked the LT's reading clip and saw it there. The story was that the cop he had pulled over drove all the way almost to the Oregon border and shot himself. My partner got so distraught by it. He kept saying he couldve at least saved another life by arresting the guy. He retired 2 years after and now works in behavioral health care and helps cops going through their problems.

[hitman13]

God I love living in AZ. I pull someone over and see their gun, I will either run it or not, depends on my spidey senses.... NO biggie out here...

[Notorious]

Ah... the smell of freedom... living in a free state.