Stop sign/limit line question/opinion

[Falconis]

Nope... as long as that front bumper gets over the line before it's red, you're good.

Can you find me something to back that up with? I've been writing those tickets for years and winning. Is this something where the cop and judge are wrong?

[Hopalong]

I was down at the local gas station the other morning where a lot of locals get coffee and gas on their way to work.

Guy says, "hey, that new motor in town gave me a ticket for stopping with my front wheels in the crosswalk".

This guy is in his 60's, a lifelong resident of the town, and a respectful cowboy.

He was pretty upset, and after we debated the issue, I don't blame him.

He drives a big one ton truck , like I do, loaded down with equipment and tools.

Although we don't drive fast, these trucks do not stop on a dime.

Now I've been driving for 43 years and I have never had a ticket.

But, I can see a scenario, like this guy had, where

You're damned if you don't, and damned if you do.

You're approaching an intersection when the light turns yellow

You've got a split second to decide if you can make it through or not

Not to mention where is your front bumper, tires, or whatever

So you go through, and the motor says you should have stopped

Or you brake hard, and stop with your front wheels in the crosswalk

Which also gets you a ticket.

The speed limit on this main street is 35 in some places, 40 in others.

What say you guys?

I wasn't there, "but for the grace of God go I"

I'd like to think that this is a perfect place to use some discretion

And cut this guy some slack

[E Pluribus Unum]

I always thought that, to be legal, you had to be 1/2 way across the intersection before the light turned red, not the limit line.

Nope... as long as that front bumper gets over the line before it's red, you're good.

Can you find me something to back that up with? I've been writing those tickets for years and winning. Is this something where the cop and judge are wrong?

I hate red light runners, and have only accidentally ran them with very few exception. One of the tickets I fought and beat was a red light camera ticket where the picture clearly showed my car over the limit line with the light red. There was a video in court and it clearly showed that I had a yellow light and it turned red shortly after my car crossed the limit line.

I am not an attorney, and I am certainly not a judge, but I can read, and the law seems very clear to me:

21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow
signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is
ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately
thereafter.

21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
indication to proceed is shown...

It would be impossible for someone to stop "at the limit line" after he has already passed it. There is nothing in the code about the vehicle being half-way through the intersection, only that when faced with a red light, he is to stop at the limit line.

[Tacit Blue]

[ironcross]

Go ahead and post the law for "make a COMPLETE stop for about 3 seconds".

There is no VC pertaining to the "3 Second Rule" yet back when I got my license. The Examiner state to me it takes about three (3) seconds to complete a stop and check traffic three (3) times. Which is recommended from the DMV. If you failed to do so on your license test, you would fail.

It's look left then right then left again

And if that takes you 3 seconds, or 1 second each, you just allowed no telling how much traffic to approach that you did not see, very dangerous taking a full second to look any direction, you miss too much in the other directions

No where does it say 3 seconds, nor does it say how long to look any particular direction
Left/right/left again is simply a recommendation not law

Again like above there is no VC stating a three (3) second nor a three (3) traffic check.

My point for the both of you's is that it is safe to stop for three (3) seconds while checking traffic. Again per the DMV License Driving test taker: "When approaching a stop sign or a red light that you can turn on. You should take the minimum of three (3) seconds after completing a dead stop, to check for traffic three (3) times. Which is about the time needed to come to a dead stop and check for traffic.

EX: Making a right turn at a stop sign or a red light (If no signage is posted preventing right turns on red). You should pull up to before the limit line and come to a dead stop. Check for traffic and pedestrians. After COMPLETING a DEAD stop, you may inch forward to check for traffic beyond the limit like and may enter traffic when safe to do so.

Same applies for going strait threw traffic.

Actually, there is a ref in the manual that suggests that it is important to stop within 5 feet of a crosswalk so that a blind person can hear you

Correct;

Important: Blind pedestrians rely on the sound of your vehicle to become aware of your vehicle’s presence; so it is important that you stop your vehicle within 5 feet of the crosswalk. Drivers of hybrid or electric vehicles must remain especially aware that the lack of engine noise may cause a blind pedestrian to assume there is not a vehicle nearby.

Follow this cue:
––When a blind person pulls in his or her cane and steps away from the intersection, this gesture usually means for you to go (additional information
regarding blind pedestrians can be found on pages 62 and 63).

Meaning before the crosswalk/limit line. If no limit line is marked the the crosswalk line closest to you becomes the limit line.

[oldsmoboat]

There is no VC pertaining to the "3 Second Rule" yet back when I got my license. The Examiner state to me it takes about three (3) seconds to complete a stop and check traffic three (3) times. Which is recommended from the DMV. If you failed to do so on your license test, you would fail...

When in doubt, make stuff up?

[E Pluribus Unum]

I always thought that, to be legal, you had to be 1/2 way across the intersection before the light turned red, not the limit line.

Nope... as long as that front bumper gets over the line before it's red, you're good.

Can you find me something to back that up with? I've been writing those tickets for years and winning. Is this something where the cop and judge are wrong?

I hate red light runners, and have only accidentally ran them with very few exception. One of the tickets I fought and beat was a red light camera ticket where the picture clearly showed my car over the limit line with the light red. There was a video in court and it clearly showed that I had a yellow light and it turned red shortly after my car crossed the limit line.

I am not an attorney, and I am certainly not a judge, but I can read, and the law seems very clear to me:

21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow
signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is
ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately
thereafter.

21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
indication to proceed is shown...

It would be impossible for someone to stop "at the limit line" after he has already passed it. There is nothing in the code about the vehicle being half-way through the intersection, only that when faced with a red light, he is to stop at the limit line.

Is your long silence some sort of concession that both you and the judges have been wrong for years, or are you too busy out writing tickets to people who have crossed the limit line, but not yet reached the half-way mark?

[negolien]

depends

Really it depends for me. I' have to admit I' am a habitual red light violater ... ON the way to work theres a right hand turn at a 4 way. the light turns red and the people oncoming in the right lane from me turning left go first no u-turns allowed. Even though it's technically a red light violation I don't trip usually and do a quick scan because if people are following the law they're won't be an illegal u-turner crashing ionto me lol.

[Falconis]

Too busy writing out tickets to notice. Thanks for the PM though. To be honest, I do wait for the flagrant violations. Not the half chance ones.

I've also had a similar case, no video though, where I won that one. I argued other factors into the case which is probably why I won. Factors being a danger to the pedestrians on the other side of the intersection and the fact the vehicle had to unsfely speed up blah blah blah. But you get the idea.

But I still do not concede.

But I will say this, sorry I am on drugs right now so I may have misunderstood. For some reason I took it as the front bumper being across the limit line, not before it before the light turns red.

[Falconis]

Also, now that I think about it, we may have 2 sides of the same coin here. How far back were you when the light turned yellow, was it a stale yellow or a fast one. ehhh I think you get the idea.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Too busy writing out tickets to notice. Thanks for the PM though. To be honest, I do wait for the flagrant violations. Not the half chance ones.

I've also had a similar case, no video though, where I won that one. I argued other factors into the case which is probably why I won. Factors being a danger to the pedestrians on the other side of the intersection and the fact the vehicle had to unsfely speed up blah blah blah. But you get the idea.

But I will say this, sorry I am on drugs right now so I may have misunderstood. For some reason I took it as the front bumper being across the limit line, not before it before the light turns red.

Also, now that I think about it, we may have 2 sides of the same coin here. How far back were you when the light turned yellow, was it a stale yellow or a fast one. ehhh I think you get the idea.

Speed limit was 55 so it was a long yellow. I was in my mustang and floored it to make the light, but was not speeding. I barely made it across the limit line when it turned red.... my front tires were on the limit line but had not yet entered the intersection, but my bumper was clearly past the line.

But I still do not concede.

Fair enough.... I tend to be a letter of the law man when it comes to a defense; it's either illegal, or it's not.. If I understood your position on the matter, it was that for many years you have issued citations for motorists who were not yet half-way through the intersection and that years of experience issuing citations, and working with judges have taught you this.... certainly if that is correct, somewhere in the vehicle code there should be some verbiage of "half way through the intersection...".

It just goes to show that there are MANY misconceptions about what the vehicle code says, and just because it has been done for years doesn't make it right; additionally, being a LEO or a judge does not make one an end all be all of the law.... but I'm sure you knew that.

[Falconis]

Now that I am not so high on pain meds, I can probably type with a little more clarity. I will say your description of events could have gone either way depending on what was testified to. Even in the DMV handbook, yellow means slow down, not floor it so you can make the red light. That could be argued on safety grounds depending on your surroundings. Despite reds and stop signs, there is a vehicle code (California) section about not entering an intersection until safe to do so. I think it's under the yields sections. IF I were to have issued you a cite under the above conditions, the only thing I could think of was if you had ample time and distance to come to a stop while the light was yellow and was it safe for you to perform the action you did as described above (22350 CVC not withstanding).

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the actions above as I wasn't there. But I also know every cite I ever issued was correct, within spirit and letter. My rule of thumb on reds have always been did the car enter the intersection before the light turned red ( and I mean atleast half the car).

Like I said, I may have misunderstood an earlier post from you. I make mistakes on occasion.

But all in all, from your description, I probably would have cited you if I saw that violation and argued all factors seen in the area including the fact whether or not you had ample time and distance to stop before the intersection. You are arguing your (if I am correct) that your front bumper barely crossed the limit line when the light turned red. That would indicate that you had plenty of time to stop if the light was a stale yellow as opposed to a quick one. I may be wrong, you may be wrong. But I would be comfortable in citing you and filling my ovetime slip for court.

EDIT: Disclaimer - I'm also not a traffic camera. I may or may not see how close to or over the limit line you were when said light turned red.

[ironcross]

When in doubt, make stuff up?

Sorry, no. I am not here to make stuff up nor ill-inform people. Contact you're local LE Traffic Division, and/or DMV office.

I contacted my Sheriff's Traffic SGT. While he only answered half of the question.

You've completed a stop when you feel the car completely settle. You brake, the forward motion has completely stopped and you feel the vehicle rock back and settle into place.

Here's this. Next time you approach a stop sign. Time yourself. See how long it takes for you to come to a complete stop, after the stop check both ways for pedestrians/traffic, then proceed SAFELY cross the stop sign/flashing red traffic light.

All I said was;

At the minimum per DMV reps and experience it should take no less than three (3) to five (5) seconds. To complete the task of coming to a complete stop, checking traffic/pedestrians, then crossing a stop sign/flashing red traffic light....