Stop sign/limit line question/opinion

[retired]

If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway

This section of the vehicle code, as posted by halifax, seems to answer the question as to where to stop your vehicle.

[fullrearview]

Wow... I didn't think this thread would have so many posts. I am also surprised as long as it is, it's just a civil!

[BigDogatPlay]

Limit line violations are unbeatable in court. I never fight them; I show up, plead stupid, and pay my fine.

Well played.... glad you saw that one coming.

You'd be surprised. When defendants object to testimony or evidence in traffic court, it makes some officers and commissioners visibly agitated. They see traffic court as a well-oiled machine where officers come in, convicted defendants leave, and they call the next name. They see my actions as nothing more than an inconvenient delay in an attempt to get away with breaking the law.

While I don't disagree with your observation about well oiled machines, I'd not be surprised. I've seen traffic court defendants do all kinds of odd things.

This is not to say that standing up for one's rights in a court proceeding is an odd thing. What is odd, in my experience, are those who think they know better than the court..... and attorneys as defendants in traffic court are often the worst.

Regardless, they are not judges, and REAL judges regard traffic commissioners like LEOs regard security guards and dog catchers. There is a pecking order even in the courts.

Your opinion is yours and I don't disrespect it. For my sake I'll continue to address the commissioners as "your honor". There are pecking orders everywhere, to be sure. But at the end of the day all those people in black robes on the bench use the same restroom. They are all lawyers and all part of the same club. You and I are not part of that club.

You have probably never seen a defendant like me... and you are right, it very rarely ends well in court... but a few months later when the appeals notice comes back dismissed, you would never see that either.

I have seen defendants like you, I'm sure. And FWIW, I never lost a traffic case that I showed up for out of all the tickets I wrote over the years.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Well played.... glad you saw that one coming.

I wasn't dodging... it's the truth. It's the officer's word v. the defendant and in order for a court to rule for the defense, he has to believe the officer lied; which aint gonna happen. This is true for any ticket like this, i.e. seatbelt, cell phone, red light, 22349, in that there is no subjective element: one either did it, or did not.

While I don't disagree with your observation about well oiled machines, I'd not be surprised. I've seen traffic court defendants do all kinds of odd things.

I was saying you might be surprised at is seeing how angry officers and commissioners get when one is defending his rights...

Your opinion is yours and I don't disrespect it. For my sake I'll continue to address the commissioners as "your honor". There are pecking orders everywhere, to be sure. But at the end of the day all those people in black robes on the bench use the same restroom. They are all lawyers and all part of the same club. You and I are not part of that club.

No argument there... I was simply pointing out that sometimes these Jr. Judges get on power trips more so than a normal judge.

I have seen defendants like you, I'm sure. And FWIW, I never lost a traffic case that I showed up for out of all the tickets I wrote over the years.

Then you must be CHP. In my experience, they are the only ones that can tout that kind of success rate in court. Either that, or you were county sheriff and never wrote tickets..

P.S.
Thank you for your respectful presentation...

[Andy Taylor]

This is quite an interesting thread. Here's another question:
What about two motorcycles riding side by side? Both pull up and stop at the limit line. Both procede when safe, but do so at the same time. Two vehicles going through the intersection at once.

[oldsmoboat]

This is quite an interesting thread. Here's another question:
What about two motorcycles riding side by side? Both pull up and stop at the limit line. Both procede when safe, but do so at the same time. Two vehicles going through the intersection at once.

Lane sharing is legal.

[BigDogatPlay]

I wasn't dodging... it's the truth.

Didn't think you were dodging. You saw where I was going with the question and answered it.

Then you must be CHP. In my experience, they are the only ones that can tout that kind of success rate in court. Either that, or you were county sheriff and never wrote tickets..

Neither. I just didn't write chicken <bleep>, I either saw a violation and wrote what I saw or I didn't. Can't write what you don't see is how I always played it. And I was always straight up with the violator, every time. I found that helps, a lot. Call me the whore with a heart of gold, I guess.

P.S.
Thank you for your respectful presentation...

Always happy to enjoy a good give and take. Appreciate your saying so.

[tom2]

x2!

Judge was wrong. God knows why he decided to be wrong.

Front bumper behind the limit line, full and complete stop. When I say behind, I mean within half a car length so you can clear the intersection.

[ironcross]

Okay... No offense guys. For those [Non-LEO] I don't get how you got your license. While my friend and my father don't give a rats *** about limit lines nor signaling.

Any who. Regarding limit lines. You are to stop you're vehicle as a whole behind the limit line. Meaning you're front bumper should NOT cross the limit line and are to make a COMPLETE stop for about 3 seconds. Which is the time it would take to check right, left and right again.

However you may make a complete stop behind the limit line and after you may pull up to check traffic beyond the limit line before your turn/ X-intersection.

Here is the definition of a limit line via VC 377:

A "limit line" is a solid white line not less than 12 nor more than 24 inches wide, extending across a roadway or any portion thereof to indicate the point at which traffic is required to stop in compliance with legal requirements.

Only thing I see missing from that definition is "If no limit line is present yet a crosswalk is. You must use the line closest to you of the X-Walk as the limit line".

Here is VC 22450 Stop Requirements:

22450.
(a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.

If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway .

(b) The driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign at a railroad grade crossing shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before crossing the first track or entrance to the railroad grade crossing.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a local authority may adopt rules and regulations by ordinance or resolution providing for the placement of a stop sign at any location on a highway under its jurisdiction where the stop sign would enhance traffic safety.

Amended Sec. 8, Ch. 630, Stats. 2007. Effective January 1, 2008.

An eight-sided red STOP sign indicates that you must make a full “STOP” whenever you see a STOP sign. Stop before entering a crosswalk or at a white limit line, which is a wide white line painted on the street. If a crosswalk or limit line is not painted on the street, stop at the corner.

Per DMV, if you're front tires had cross the limit line in to the intersection while on yellow and now red. You have entered legally. Meaning cross traffic has to wait/yield till you crossed the intersection even with a green. Yet there is conflicting things in the handbook. One part says if you entered on a green you've entered legally and another where it says do not block intersections. The lady I did my driving test said that if you've entered on a green and blocking, that the cross traffic shall yield as you had the right of way first.

I know, as I didn't get marked for "Running a Red" on my driving test. Like was yellow so I sped up and crossed as it would of been unsafe to slam on the brakes @50mph with vehicles behind me.

Solid Yellow–A yellow signal light means “CAUTION.” The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you cannot stop safely, cross the intersection cautiously.

[oldsmoboat]

Okay... No offense guys. For those [Non-LEO] I don't get how you got your license. While my friend and my father don't give a rats *** about limit lines nor signaling.

Any who. Regarding limit lines. You are to stop you're vehicle as a whole behind the limit line. Meaning you're front bumper should NOT cross the limit line and are to make a COMPLETE stop for about 3 seconds. Which is the time it would take to check right, left and right again.

However you may make a complete stop behind the limit line and after you may pull up to check traffic beyond the limit line before your turn/ X-intersection.

Here is the definition of a limit line via VC 377:

Only thing I see missing from that definition is "If no limit line is present yet a crosswalk is. You must use the line closest to you of the X-Walk as the limit line".

Here is VC 22450 Stop Requirements:





Per DMV, if you're front tires had cross the limit line in to the intersection while on yellow and now red. You have entered legally. Meaning cross traffic has to wait/yield till you crossed the intersection even with a green. Yet there is conflicting things in the handbook. One part says if you entered on a green you've entered legally and another where it says do not block intersections. The lady I did my driving test said that if you've entered on a green and blocking, that the cross traffic shall yield as you had the right of way first.

I know, as I didn't get marked for "Running a Red" on my driving test. Like was yellow so I sped up and crossed as it would of been unsafe to slam on the brakes @50mph with vehicles behind me.

Go ahead and post the law for "make a COMPLETE stop for about 3 seconds".

[Tripper]

It's look left then right then left again

And if that takes you 3 seconds, or 1 second each, you just allowed no telling how much traffic to approach that you did not see, very dangerous taking a full second to look any direction, you miss too much in the other directions

No where does it say 3 seconds, nor does it say how long to look any particular direction
Left/right/left again is simply a recommendation not law

[Tripper]

Actually, there is a ref in the manual that suggests that it is important to stop within 5 feet of a crosswalk so that a blind person can hear you

[RazzB7]

Judge was wrong. God knows why he decided to be wrong.

Front bumper behind the limit line, full and complete stop. When I say behind, I mean within half a car length so you can clear the intersection.

Front bumper or front tires?

I'll make this argument against front bumper: Let's say I'm coming up on an intersection and the light has turned yellow. As I am crossing the limit line, the light turns red. My front bumper has crossed the limit line, but my tires are behind it at time of red. I get stopped and try to make the argument that I was across the limit line because my bumper had made it across. I would probably lose that argument. So, if the bumper is not good enough for that definition, the opposite should be true.

Now, with all that said. That is not how I drive. I believe the limit line and associated crosswalk belongs to the pedestrian and my bumper has no business in it. I also would not attempt to cut a yellow light that close.

Just making a point. Point being, the law is ambiguous.

Razz

[MaHoTex]

I always thought that, to be legal, you had to be 1/2 way across the intersection before the light turned red, not the limit line.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I always thought that, to be legal, you had to be 1/2 way across the intersection before the light turned red, not the limit line.

Nope... as long as that front bumper gets over the line before it's red, you're good.