Stop sign/limit line question/opinion

[fullrearview]

So what is your definition/interpretation of a California stop?

Reason I ask, is one judge's definition is much different than what I'm sure yours and mine is. According to the judge, who we will call, "Dave," it is okay for a line of 5 cars to stop at a stop sign, as a group, then proceed through as a group. Meaning, everyone stops, but not individually at the limit line.

Dave dismissed the ticket against driver of car number five, who was stopped by CHP. Dave said, the driver stopped before he proceeded through the stop sign, as required by law, even though it was 20 yards from the limit line. Driver then proceeded through intersection at about 20 mph, not properly clearing the intersection. Mind you this is a busy intersection of two highways.

The CHP officer then stated, "I stopped just before I exited my driveway... Does that mean I get to roll through every stop sign the rest of the day?"

Dave didn't answer and called the next case to order. Gotta hand it to CHP... Trollin' in court at its finest!

So what say you? Right or wrong?

I will say this... If he does it himself and refuses to charge someone with said infraction, I understand it. While I was patrolling with a broken windshield, I wouldn't stop anyone with a broken windshield... I'd find something else! However, could he be legislating from the bench?

[Falconis]

Judge was wrong. God knows why he decided to be wrong.

Front bumper behind the limit line, full and complete stop. When I say behind, I mean within half a car length so you can clear the intersection.

[fullrearview]

Judge was wrong. God knows why he decided to be wrong.

Front bumper behind the limit line, full and complete stop. When I say behind, I mean within half a car length so you can clear the intersection.

Exactly. By his definition, you only need to stop once the entire day.

[Fjold]

Believe it or not in some states that is legal.

When I live in Massachusettes (1978) if you were the third car or further back in line and there was no cross traffic, you could proceed through the intersection (cautiously) without stopping.

[tyrist]

Traffic judges are a strange group. I have seen them dismiss cases for the most absurd reasons. One Officer didn't state he was in full uniform during the stop and the judge dismissed. One Officer wore a suit without a tie and that caused 3 cases to get dismissed.

I guess it feels good to exercise your power.

[TRICKSTER]

Traffic judges are a strange group. I have seen them dismiss cases for the most absurd reasons. One Officer didn't state he was in full uniform during the stop and the judge dismissed. One Officer wore a suit without a tie and that caused 3 cases to get dismissed.

I guess it feels good to exercise your power.

+1. I have seen some dismiss cases on a whim and others show extreme prejudice towards violators. Years ago, there was one in Walnut Creek traffic court that would find every good looking female "Not guilty" no matter what evidence the officer presented. The best one I saw was when the defendant's father appeared in place of the defendant stating that his son was unable to appear because he was in jail. The judge responded "Now how am I supposed to convict him if he isn't here".

[Notorious]

Everything between a full stop and driving straight through the stop sign is a california roll. I pulled over a lady (using the term loosely), for doing what you guys said. She was the second car in a line and blew through the stop right behind the first car. The judge convicted.

I haven't had any bad experiences with traffic judges here. They've all been pretty straight and narrow.

[Hopalong]

Maybe the judge is old and from Massachusetts, like me.

When I learned to drive in the 60's in Mass.

Three cars were allowed to go through a stop sign, after a complete stop.

Apparently that is not the case anymore.

When I moved to Ca. 36 years ago, I read up on the Ca. laws and realized that every car had to stop.

Seems to me that these things are spelled out, and that the judge was mistaken

http://masslawlib.blogspot.com/2011/05/can-second-and-third-cars-in-line.html

[halifax]

Stop Requirements CVC 22450.(a)

Sorry, not LE but thought I'd post the CVC for us lay-people:

Stop Requirements
22450. (a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.

If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway .

(b) The driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign at a railroad grade crossing shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before crossing the first track or entrance to the railroad grade crossing.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a local authority may adopt rules and regulations by ordinance or resolution providing for the placement of a stop sign at any location on a highway under its jurisdiction where the stop sign would enhance traffic safety.

Amended Sec. 8, Ch. 630, Stats. 2007. Effective January 1, 2008.

[MaHoTex]

Sorry, not LE but thought I'd post the CVC for us lay-people:

So how far back can be considered "at" the limit line?
1 inch?
1 foot?
10 feet?
If it is 10 feet, what about 11? Seems like the water becomes muddy.

I think I would have to agree with the judge on this one. If a line of cars stop AND there is no other traffic at the intersection, it's all good.

[Falconis]

Have to be able to safely clear the intersection. Becomes a problem when it's a blind one and after that, it becomes a battle or articulation.

[MaHoTex]

Ok, I saw you said "1/2 a car length" and be able to clear the intersection. 1/2 car length of a Smart car or 1/2 car length of a 1988 lincoln town car? That represents about a 50 feet difference there.

And you are totally right about blind intersections. Heck, half of the time you have to pull your car 5 feet into the intersection before you can see if cars are coming. Well past the "limit line", now what would an office do? How does that play out?

Is the driver supposed to stop before the limit line and then "creep" into the intersection and stop again... BTW, I HATE limit lines.

[fullrearview]

Is the driver supposed to stop before the limit line and then "creep" into the intersection and stop again... BTW, I HATE limit lines.

By letter of the law, yes... However, I see people roll through all the time (Under 3-4mph) and carefully clear the intersection. I'm okay with that as long as they clear it safely. And that includes a right hand turn, clearing the lane before them, not just traffic coming their way... Seen a few rear-enders because people didn't clear right in front of them.

[Falconis]

A little common sense and a dash of judgement and I am usually ok . Either way, if you blow through a stop sign, I have been successful in the past arguing that stopping 5 car lengths back behind the limit line doesn't constitute a safe stop. Everything as always is dependent on the situation at hand. Now I have also had people blow through a stop sign in front of me (on duty) as a f**k you and try to argue their way out of it there and in the court room. They lost both times.

Now with the above judge, odds are I probably would have lost no matter what I said.

Ok, I saw you said "1/2 a car length" and be able to clear the intersection. 1/2 car length of a Smart car or 1/2 car length of a 1988 lincoln town car? That represents about a 50 feet difference there.

And you are totally right about blind intersections. Heck, half of the time you have to pull your car 5 feet into the intersection before you can see if cars are coming. Well past the "limit line", now what would an office do? How does that play out?

Is the driver supposed to stop before the limit line and then "creep" into the intersection and stop again... BTW, I HATE limit lines.

[BigDogatPlay]

Judge was wrong. God knows why he decided to be wrong.

Judges are never wrong.... just ask one.

Now if it's opinion and interpretation that a group of cars can stop and then proceed through as a group, then I know I'm going to be very careful about writing stop signs that might wind up before him.

Front bumper behind the limit line, full and complete stop. When I say behind, I mean within half a car length so you can clear the intersection.

Pretty much what the VC and common sense both say..... go figure. Although I always used to use the front wheels relative to the limit line as my gauge.