Ammo Selection

[jerkyg]

Notorious,

I will defer to your knowledge...been awhile since I looked up the penal laws on that. They are ever so changing...and a lot of times, I don't check because they usually don't pertain to me.

I have shot water jugs with 12 guage 8 shot at around 10 feet...and the damage is not something I would want to be on the receiving end. So, 6 shot or 8 shot...it is just that I have kids...and if 8 shot will not go through two sheet rock walls....then, that is what I use.

And that was my point about having a short barrel tactical, pistol grip shotgun...not to have it taken away. Maybe we should do a test on sheet rock...yes? I have no problem going to ace and getting some and doing a test. That would be not only fun (shooting sh.i.t and blowing it up) but, an interesting experiment. Different shot size...distance...

What do you say...are you on?

Stay safe...

I get the gist of your post, but if you say manueverability and retention are key, then why give up 2 more inches to bang against a wall or let the bad guy grab onto as you break the threshhold?

In CA (and federal law), shotgun barrels have to be 18" while rifle barrels have to be 16". The 20" barrel tactical shotgun is milspec derived from the M590, IIRC, and not necessarily a civilian equivalent. Police Rem870 are all 18.5" barreled and most Mossberg M500 Persuaders are 18.5" barreled.

I just said 6 shot because it is still pretty small and can be stopped by drywall but makes more of a dent on a human target than the 8-1/2 shot which is little more than a steel bb that you would use in an airgun.

[Notorious]

I get the gist of what you are saying and you are right. I have a 18.5" Rem870 that I converted to pistol grip (Hogue) and single point bungee sling looped on top with a railed forend that holds a M3 light. It holds 7 shots in the tube and that is plenty.

Remember... Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face close range with birdshot and his friend lived... with no real permanent effects. Just depends on the distance and angle, I guess. But you are right, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any kind of shot coming out of a 12 gauge, even if it is the smallest bb size available. It's still going to hurt!

[jerkyg]

Actually, by what I remember...his friend was far to his right...and just caught some shot in his face. So, Notorious...I am gonna do a test this week. Will pick up some dry wall...and do a test. We shoot all the time. I actually have about 100 rounds of 8 shot pellets....don't say BB...that is a different shot size. And I have shot lots of the 8 shot just to shoot...and it blows things up. At 8 feet...the pattern is about 3 inches around...concentrated...with a mod choke. I shoot this with my Mossberg 12 guage at 20 inches...interested in seeing the penetration though.

My Rem...is an 870 also...but, that is my duck gun...for many years. I bought that because that is what we used in the PD. They never jammed...and my gun has been in dirt, mud, rain, etc...flawless...shot too many ducks to remember. Rarely ever clean it...

Will let you know what happens....not a totally scientific test...but, should give us some idea.

Stay safe...

[Jonathan Doe]

The bullets' behavior cannot be predicted. I have seen many premium JHP bullets go through a body and hit something else. 38 Sepcial, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto all did that at one time or another. So did 223 and 308. I would not worry about over penetration.

[Notorious]

Here ya go... our airgun steel bb (.177") is roughly twice the size of your #8 shot.

I would be pretty interested to see how the #12 shot holds up as it will go out like a cloud of lead powder which will break skin but not carry all that much kinetic energy once it starts moving through air.

[jerkyg]

If it goes through one wall...that is over penetration...if your child is in that room.

Stay safe...

The bullets' behavior cannot be predicted. I have seen many premium JHP bullets go through a body and hit something else. 38 Sepcial, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto all did that at one time or another. So did 223 and 308. I would not worry about over penetration.

[jerkyg]

Don't know about 12 shot size..."airgun"...?

I am excited about doing a test with the 8 shot...12 guage....with dry wall. Will take pics too....

Stay safe....

Here ya go... our airgun steel bb (.177") is roughly twice the size of your #8 shot.

I would be pretty interested to see how the #12 shot holds up as it will go out like a cloud of lead powder which will break skin but not carry all that much kinetic energy once it starts moving through air.

[oddjob]

Another factor to consider as far as a an agency purchase (choice) of ammunition is the "state contract." There could be other "high speed wazoo" type of ammo out there, but the agency is restricted. Just like the patrol cars.

To the OP I would have to disagree with your friend in AZ about 9mm overpenetrating....But I do agree with with the carrying of a 45 acp. I carried a 1911 for many years.

How many folks have been hit (shot) due to a round going through the torso of a suspect and hitting an innocent person? I'm sure its happened, but it has to be rare.

[jerkyg]

Hey Odd...

I believe this post was or was going towards home defense. That is why Notorious and I were going to do...well, at least I...because I can walk outside and do it....get some sheet rock tomorrow...and do a test about penetration regarding a shotgun. Type of shot shell..etc..

I don't believe a test of handgun rounds is needed. We all should know that most handgun rounds will penetrate numerous walls.

For all on here...tell me if you would be interested in this? Otherwise, I will simply send him the pics and my results.

Stay safe...

[jerkyg]

Notorious...

I have no problem with spending some bucks today on the sheet rock...

But, let me know if these tests will be ok...I am planning on doing #8 shot out of my mossberg...20"...modified choke. Take two "half inch" pieces of sheet rock....place them away from each other approx. 5 inches...trying to simulate a "wall". I will shoot at 6 feet...and 12 feet. What I would see as the max. distance in a home. I will take pics of all the results. Please...if you can...share with me how to attach these pics. When I have tried before...it asks for a website...how do I just attatch a pic? They will not be on a website...just downloaded from my camera to my laptop.

Stay safe...

[Notorious]

Notorious...

I have no problem with spending some bucks today on the sheet rock...

But, let me know if these tests will be ok...I am planning on doing #8 shot out of my mossberg...20"...modified choke. Take two "half inch" pieces of sheet rock....place them away from each other approx. 5 inches...trying to simulate a "wall". I will shoot at 6 feet...and 12 feet. What I would see as the max. distance in a home. I will take pics of all the results. Please...if you can...share with me how to attach these pics. When I have tried before...it asks for a website...how do I just attatch a pic? They will not be on a website...just downloaded from my camera to my laptop.

Stay safe...

That actually sounds like a pretty good protocol for simulating an indoor shooting with 6 and 12 feet being realistic distances of engagement in most typical suburban homes.

I would realistically assume that the shot will penetrate the first wall but will not penetrate the second wall after all the energy has been absorbed by the first wall. Actually... my friend has tried this in real life. He had a ND with his 20" tube Mossberg 590 and #7-1/2 shot. That is exactly what happened.

To attach pictures, make sure you are in the advanced mode and not the quick reply mode. Go to manage attachments, click it. The first box will be the one for "UPLOAD FROM YOUR COMPUTER" and you hit the "browse" button which will open up your typical query box with your file folders and icons. Find the picture on your computer that you want to upload. Repeat. You can do 5 pictures in one post. After you selected all the pictures and verify that the boxes show the correct path, click post as you would any other post. Voila! You should see your post and all the attached pictures.

P.S. Make sure the pix aren't too big and over the kb limit for the file type. Each file type has a maximum size, e.g. bitmap, jpeg, png, etc.

[jerkyg]

Notorious...

Ok...awesome hearing that your friend did the same thing. As a guy...and I have to take that back...my daughter is also excited...about doing the "experiment". Because she loves to shoot....and did an experiment about velocity btwn a handgun and a rifle for her school project....this is going to be fun.

And if anyone is wondering...I work 1800 - 0600 hrs....thus, I wake up at all hours.

We will see what happens...it will be interesting. Thanks for the points on how to upload pics. I did not know...I am no dumb a.s.s....but, when it comes to this computer stuff...well...I rest my case and concur.

This is going to be cool and interesting...it is nice to be able to simply buy some sheet rock, cut and shoot. Most folks cant shoot out their front door. I can...

We need to talk sometime....maybe you can come up to our ranch someday and we can do some other tests.

Will let you know what happens....well, I will hopefully have pics for all.

Stay safe....

[biochembruin]

Box o truth shotgun test:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[Notorious]

Actually it wasn't that awesome for my friend because out was purely unintentional. His wife was also not very amused at the hole in their bedroom wall.

[center_x]

Im really curious about this thread. I use 3" #4 turkey shot. The shotgun link said "birdshot" isn't effective enough, yet ive stoned coyotes at forty yards.
what are your thoughts?