must read for LEO

[titankeith]

That's not the case based on the data.

data-shmata...bigger holes cause greater damage, period. I'd take a 9mm over a .22, and a .22 over a knife, but why settle unless you have too? I can handle a .45 as easy as a 9mm, so I"ll throw the biggest round I can at the bad guy...and again, if I had a choice, it's guna be a shotgun with 00 buck at close range, or if they are at a distance, I'll tactically load a slug...aint noone going to continue a gunfight after taking a .50 cal. slug in their chest.

The only good things about 9mm is just how prevelant the rounds are...and cheaper to shoot.

[yzErnie]

That's why I will never own a 9mm

I'm not trying to bring the 9mm vs. .whatever debate again.

When you make comments like the first one, the second will follow.

I don't care what caliber handgun someone would use, if you don't hit the bad guy in the right spot(s) the threat will continue.

[ARtistinCA]

I was taught shot (or shots) placement though I agree, somewhat, with the bigger-faster bullet theory.....

I prefer 10mm.

Good article.

[SScott]

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[Omega13device]

data-shmata...bigger holes cause greater damage, period. I'd take a 9mm over a .22, and a .22 over a knife, but why settle unless you have too? I can handle a .45 as easy as a 9mm, so I"ll throw the biggest round I can at the bad guy...and again, if I had a choice, it's guna be a shotgun with 00 buck at close range, or if they are at a distance, I'll tactically load a slug...aint noone going to continue a gunfight after taking a .50 cal. slug in their chest.

The only good things about 9mm is just how prevelant the rounds are...and cheaper to shoot.

Yes, bigger holes cause more damage...but if you actually read what was written, Dr. Roberts goes on to say that "NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage."

I don't have any bias towards one caliber or another. The point that Roberts is making is that you should use the largest caliber that you shoot effectively and can afford to train with regularly. If that's 9mm then you're not giving anything up assuming you're using a good, modern self-defense load. There's something to be said about a cheaper round that gives you the change to do more training.

[9mmepiphany]

Did you read the article?
In the F'ing face is about as good a shot placement as you're going to get.
Oh and the SEVERAL rounds that hit center mass aren't bad either.

Actually it isn't

That is part of the fallacy of poor shot placement and belief that proper accuracy based training is a waste of time. A shot to the face as a stopper is as valid a belief as the one-shot stop.

I refer you to the Quell shooting system from the 70s. Although the system's stance was less than workable, the system targets were outstanding in identifying proper shot placement for the best chance of a stopping shot. A brief recap would include the list as the medulla oblongata, the spinal column, the kidneys and the pelvic girdle

[SScott]

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[PandaLuv]

sh*t, that was some good article. It was pretty intense and touching to be honest. But it sure does not scare me to become a cop.

Btw, did you guys here what happened in Ceres, South Bay, CA in 2005? There was a coked out Norte/US Marine who killed an officer, and wounded one severely. He used a modified SKS full auto with a detachable 30 round magazine with some armor piercing bullets. He set up a military ambush,that was pretty intense watching gangland

[SScott]

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[Notorious]

A SWAT sergeant told me his team took on a guy dusted on some super PCP and dual wielding pistols... his team unloaded into the guy, and he personally center punched the guy in the heart with a 12 gauge. He said the guy kept fighting after he blew his heart out and the guy finally just collapsed after his body stopped pumping blood and it shut down on him. Aftermath reports state that the guy didn't know he was dead because the drugs kept him going even after his body died in the clinical sense.

Point is, there are times when it takes molecular disintegration to instantly stop the threat and absent that capability, our police issue weapons are what we have to deal with.

[PandaLuv]

A SWAT sergeant told me his team took on a guy dusted on some super PCP and dual wielding pistols... his team unloaded into the guy, and he personally center punched the guy in the heart with a 12 gauge. He said the guy kept fighting after he blew his heart out and the guy finally just collapsed after his body stopped pumping blood and it shut down on him. Aftermath reports state that the guy didn't know he was dead because the drugs kept him going even after his body died in the clinical sense.

Point is, there are times when it takes molecular disintegration to instantly stop the threat and absent that capability, our police issue weapons are what we have to deal with.

Oh god that's horrible. Jk you never know what a person can do, especially if that person is on drugs.
Do you have more stories like that?

[9mmepiphany]

What you wrote doesn't counter what I said.
When trying to kill some one center mass and head shots are your best bet.
End of story.

I wouldn't know...I've never been trained/practiced to shoot to kill anyone, just to stop them...That's what LEOs do

I wasn't trying to counter what you said, I was pointing out the error of your perception

[Notorious]

Oh god that's horrible. Jk you never know what a person can do, especially if that person is on drugs.
Do you have more stories like that?

Nope... but talk to any salty old-timer who's seen his share and you'll hear stories of perps not going down when you expect them to... it's not like the movies at all. Expect everything to not go as expected. That is the only way to really be prepared.

[PandaLuv]

Nope... but talk to any salty old-timer who's seen his share and you'll hear stories of perps not going down when you expect them to... it's not like the movies at all. Expect everything to not go as expected. That is the only way to really be prepared.

Just like that guy with the SKS.
Seriously though, cops are not as appreciated as they should be.

[Notorious]

Heck, I'll bring it up since nobody else has done it yet. Look at Rodney King.

He didn't comply with multiple commands to get down, tried to grab an officer's gun, got peppered to no effect, and was struck with batons multiple times and still wanted to fight.

The drug he was on? Alcohol. That's what they found in his system. Granted, he wasn't shot, but the fact that he was unfazed by conventional less lethal methods pointed to something else and that in turn, made the cops react the way they did.

The 2 perps in the 86 Miami shootout? Pure adrenaline and the will to fight. They both took multiple hits, from shotguns, and pistols, and kept fighting.

The North Hollywood bank robbers? Pure adrenaline and home made body armor and military flak jackets. They absorbed hundreds of hits and kept going. SWAT took one out the mechanical way, by shooting out his legs and feet from under him, collapsing the mechanical support structure, but not taking out his physiological ability to keep fighting.

We were taught in the academy as a last resort, to take out the mechanical support, to immobilize a threat, if we cannot incapacitate a threat with COM shots. Shoot the hips, collapse the pelvic bone girdle and with it, the attachment points for the femurs, it takes out the mechanical support structure needed to stand, and you have a suspect now laying on the ground, while still able to fight, but at least not able to move around. No idea how realistic or feasible or even if it has been used on any large scale by appreciable number of officers, but it's something to know.