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Calif. Change from Reasonable to Nessecary Force

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  • #31
    JM2012
    • Nov 2012
    • 87

    If California voters pass this bill, then they deserve the lawless state that they will surely get. Recidivist criminals already have no respect for our society of laws or for the men and women charged with enforcing those laws. Unfortunately, even though the U.S. Supreme Court has set standards for government use of force, states and local jurisdictions are free to set more restrictive standards on their agents. While Graham v. Connor may prevent California officers for being subject to suits brought under Federal law, nothing will prevent them from being sued, prosecuted, and imprisoned for violations of California law.

    San Francisco PD is already subject to a "minimum force" standard (enacted through local Department general orders) instead of the usual "reasonable force" standard. It doesn't take a MENSA gathering to see that San Francisco is beset by rampant lawlessness -- mostly due to decades of so-called progressive policies and cops that are hampered by agency policies that give every edge, advantage, and courtesy to savvy criminals who work the system.

    If this passes, except to see a marked drop in any enforcement action on any call from any cop in the state. It'll be safer, both physically and legally, to take no action and argue that you were attempting to "utilize time and distance", "wait for sufficient backup to avoid instigating a lethal conflict", "trying to build rapport with the suspect", or "attempting to deploy less lethal force options."

    In the end, it will be citizens disarmed by ridiculous California gun laws that lose out. Most cops will still risk a trial by jury over death by gunfire. Risking incarceration for taking reasonable, justifiable action that unfortunately resulted in the death of a violent, resistive criminal? Probably not.

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    • #32
      Librarian
      Admin and Poltergeist
      CGN Contributor - Lifetime
      • Oct 2005
      • 44691

      Originally posted by JM2012
      If California voters pass this bill,
      It's a bill in the Legislature - no voter input after election of legislators, unless it should be pulled into a referendum.
      ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

      Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

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      • #33
        esy
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2012
        • 1197

        Originally posted by Librarian
        It's a bill in the Legislature - no voter input after election of legislators, unless it should be pulled into a referendum.

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        • #34
          Librarian
          Admin and Poltergeist
          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
          • Oct 2005
          • 44691

          Much longer would be really off topic, but that's a lot of the difference between 'direct democracy' and 'representative democracy'.
          ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

          Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

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          • #35
            Blade Gunner
            Veteran Member
            • Mar 2013
            • 4422

            Originally posted by Librarian
            Much longer would be really off topic, but that's a lot of the difference between 'direct democracy' and 'representative democracy'.


            CA is a Democracy?


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
            If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing it all wrong.

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            • #36
              DolphinFan
              Veteran Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 2586

              Originally posted by Blade Gunner
              CA is a Democracy?


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              The word Democracy is NOT in any state Constitution. Like all other states in the Union California is at best a Democratic Republic. Our flag says CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC
              10/15/2022 - Called to get on the list
              2/18/2023 - Interview set
              4/27/2023 - Class
              4/30/2023 - Live Scan
              5/9/2023 - Interview
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              8/1/2023 - Issued

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              • #37
                Blade Gunner
                Veteran Member
                • Mar 2013
                • 4422

                Originally posted by DolphinFan
                The word Democracy is NOT in any state Constitution. Like all other states in the Union California is at best a Democratic Republic. Our flag says CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC



                Kinda of like the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea?


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing it all wrong.

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                • #38
                  Librarian
                  Admin and Poltergeist
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 44691

                  Dropping into political theory is off topic for this forum; as already noted, the best place for such a discussion is Off Topic, since the subject is neither guns nor 2nd Amendment.
                  ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

                  Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

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                  • #39
                    HAVOC5150
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 1667

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                    • #40
                      code_blue
                      Veteran Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 3461

                      Well, we've seen municipalities voting to omit themselves from state sanctuary laws, so I would not be surprised if that would happen here as well.

                      Agreed that this will not pass legal muster in constitutional ruling via stare decisis of Graham v. Connor and Tennessee v. Garner. Even before then, with consideration for the lack of horizontal stare decisis, each district can choose to interpret legislative intent of the law however they see fit until vertical stare decisis comes into play.

                      Then again, I really don't see any conservative jurisdictions complying even after a CA Appellate or CA SC rules for the law. We are at the extreme cases of ideals in this era and I feel that it is literally a good v. evil battle now.
                      Last edited by code_blue; 04-11-2018, 6:04 PM.
                      Classifieds:

                      Radian & Aero Pistol lowers, Folsom

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                      • #41
                        TripleThreat
                        CGN Contributor
                        • Mar 2012
                        • 2642

                        This is the same type of people that passed Measure B in San Jose. It seemed like a good idea. Years later and millions of dollars as well as an uptick in crime, not so much.
                        1911 "The MILF of handguns"

                        LINK: 9mm Shootout: BHP vs 92A1 vs SP-01 vs P-01

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                        • #42
                          packnrat
                          Veteran Member
                          • Feb 2007
                          • 3939

                          i am glad i will be out of here in a short number of years.
                          already have some of my things out of this state, in free America.

                          i feel for the leos stuck here. soon it will be like that cheap future cop movie. demolition man i belive??
                          where a street cop has to have a computer tell him what to do.
                          big gun's...i love big gun's

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                          • #43
                            TrailerparkTrash
                            Veteran Member
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 4249

                            Originally posted by packnrat
                            i soon it will be like that cheap future cop movie. demolition man i belive?? where a street cop has to have a computer tell him what to do.
                            sigpic

                            It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs

                            -ΙΧΘΥΣ <><

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                            • #44
                              RedVines
                              Member
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 463

                              My dept recently issued a laminated checklist for getting ambushed. Literally: "Step 1: Find Cover"....

                              I **** you not

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                              • #45
                                SVT-40
                                I need a LIFE!!
                                • Jan 2008
                                • 12907

                                Originally posted by RedVines
                                My dept recently issued a laminated checklist for getting ambushed. Literally: "Step 1: Find Cover"....

                                I **** you not
                                Should have been:

                                Step one.... Poop your shorts.
                                Poke'm with a stick!


                                Originally posted by fiddletown
                                What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

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