Taser/Spray Question

[MrEd]

As to your litigation point , should you deploy an irritant in the air ( pepper spray ) as an EP agent , you will most likely do it amongst a small crowd and at that point litigations are guaranteed . If the darts from your taser miss the intended target and hit someone else , same result .

You want to use "targeted force" aimed at that ONE person that is causing whatever issue it is you are reacting to . You are being paid to protect your client , not to enter in hand to hand combat . the second you use force , whatever it is , you open yourself to lawsuits , that is why as an EP agent you should have some serious insurance . Never be caught without it !!!!

As a Security Officer , the whole dynamic is different as you are most likely to be protecting an Area and would have to interdict access to said area by unauthorized person , that is where deployment of taser and/or pepper spray has a strategic use .

[Redemption]

In the EP role I don't have the time to play around with a spray OR a taser , if I need to deploy any level of force to protect my client , I use overwhelming force to create a buffer between the threat and my client .
Telescoping Baton's are the favorite tool to use as it will stop a threat and prevent them from pursuing as one evacuates the client .

Going hands on is something I try to limit to people asking for autographs or things like that because . Everyone else gets a baton to the knee or shin . As an EP agent you do not stand and fight it out . Your Instructors should make that very clear . Your Job is to get off the X and bring your client to safety . putting an irritant in the air or deploying a Taser prevents you from doing that for a few seconds .

As to your litigation point , should you deploy an irritant in the air ( pepper spray ) as an EP agent , you will most likely do it amongst a small crowd and at that point litigations are guaranteed . If the darts from your taser miss the intended target and hit someone else , same result .

You want to use "targeted force" aimed at that ONE person that is causing whatever issue it is you are reacting to . You are being paid to protect your client , not to enter in hand to hand combat . the second you use force , whatever it is , you open yourself to lawsuits , that is why as an EP agent you should have some serious insurance . Never be caught without it !!!!

As a Security Officer , the whole dynamic is different as you are most likely to be protecting an Area and would have to interdict access to said area by unauthorized person , that is where deployment of taser and/or pepper spray has a strategic use .

Agreed, I am as we speak in the middle of that training, EP 1 and EP 2 are next week so we have only grazed over things like hasty egress plans. Some of this stuff is stuff I know from my time in the Marines, some of it is common sense but yes I imagine for EP work I am not going to have time to stick around and play, as the goal is to extract the client in the event of an emergency.

I am assuming here, but my guess is that some of that type of work is going to be fewer and far between for me fresh out of school. If I am right about that I am more likely to end up with a post or a patrol early on.

You are right about the insurance, and that is something else I have been very curious about. What are good solutions for carrying insurance for that purpose?

[scadvice]

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

I prefer giving a snap kick to the guys package for excellent results but wouldn't pass up on a face punch either.

True, or a solid baton strike to the knee(while aiming for the thigh of course) works pretty well also.

Happened to me while a cop in the service (I gave it... not received). Got a Article 15 for doing it but that was later ruled as justified and dropped off my record. I bet the guy still walks funny.

[MrEd]

In the EP world the school that trained you is important because different schools teach different curriculum and some are better qualities than others . So if you are in a "good" school more jobs will come your way on that side of things .

I also strongly recommend international experience , by that I mean take a course in another country , that looks great on your resume and most likely will impress potential clients .

As for insurance , get a policy tailored for each job you will do , it is easier at the beginning especially . Once you made a name for yourself you can always get a better insurance co . Don't get me wrong , the insurance will be one of the major expense you have in the EP field .

Don't romanticize the EP world , when people ask me , this is how I describe it .
Years of boredom and possibly 5 seconds of terror . Some people are made for that job but most are not . I don't want to discourage you and if this is something you really want then you will attain your goal .

[omgwtfbbq]

True, or a solid baton strike to the knee(while aiming for the thigh of course) works pretty well also.

Eh, Our impact weapons instructors have said the curriculum has changed and hitting joints is totally kosher now. Some of the old-timers talk about being trained to hit in the "fleshy" parts to prevent the risk of breaking a bone.

Now days (I've only been working since 2012) they teach us to hit bones: shins, knees, clavicle, arms, elbows. Just don't hit them in the head.

[CinnamonBear723]

Eh, Our impact weapons instructors have said the curriculum has changed and hitting joints is totally kosher now. Some of the old-timers talk about being trained to hit in the "fleshy" parts to prevent the risk of breaking a bone.

Now days (I've only been working since 2012) they teach us to hit bones: shins, knees, clavicle, arms, elbows. Just don't hit them in the head.

We too are trained to target joints, forearms, shins and the like. Its just not my preferred weapon. I'm 6'2, 240 so I rely on my size and strength to get me through most uses of force.

When i jam people up, i usually stay within someones 'bubble' to create a tactical uncomfortable, and somewhat verbally aggressive situation. I don't normally stand far enough back to pull out a taser or baton. And pepper spray, forget it, don't even carry the stuff.

I don't mean to sound like a ham fisted Neanderthal but these are the tactics i am comfortable with, and have yet to fail me. My fist never fails to deploy when i need it. Occasionally, i'll throw in a knee or chuck norris round house, but for the most part i just throw people on the ground and use my size and heavy equipment to keep them pinned down. Twisting them into pretzels is also quite effective.

[MrEd]

What is it with police officers being trained to hit joints , I thought pot was now legal in California

[Endless]

Also keep in mind that some people the spray and taser will do nothing. I have seen it with training. We did full facial pepper spray training a couple years ago and we had a 20 year old female that it had no effect on her and she said it was like someone spraying her face with mild Taco Bell sauce. I started laughing and said typically folks don't react this way. A week later they sprayed her again and she looked at us with her eyes open and shrugged her shoulders. We also had a guy about 10 years ago get tased and he literally pulled it out of his chest and threw it on the ground. Some people these tools just don't do anything.

I am currently going through armed security and executive protection training and I am hoping to get some experience based opinions regarding a couple of things. Its great that my school has an opinion but I generally look for opinions that come directly from the trenches.

Taser Questions:

So, as is usually my style I seem to have expensive tastes. Ive sort of fallen in love with the X2 but I just dont have a $1400 budget for a taser at the moment so Ive been trying to decide what I want.

If an LEO with field taser use can give me their thoughts on what to choose, where to get it pros cons etc. Anyone ever used the Taser Bolt? thoughts? should I rethink budget for ECD's?

Spray Questions:

My school seems to be of the opinion that Foam is the way to go, I can see why. but I can also see how a fogger might be good for creating a barrier... opinions and thoughts on what to choose and why?

[hermosabeach]

Wow

This went from a simple question to a fun read....

Can of the 3 way spray - sabre. OC, CS and UV dye
70 grams / 2.5 oz so CA friendly

Not sure I would ever worry about carrying more than the 2 1/2 oz limit.

If you assault someone with OC, then I am not sure the size of the spray makes much of a difference.

Well if you douse down a crowd with a 16oz fogger.......

But if you spray someone with a 1/2 ounce, 2 1/2 ounce or 4 ounce spray, not sure anyone really cares about the size.... unless you were a jerk and sprayed the wrong people.....

[Atomic Donut]

Individuals in my situation are limited to 2.5oz I am finding that Stream seems to be the popular choice.

I agree, I would rather discourage a physical confrontation with my mind and body language when I can. Some people of course wont be reasoned with, in those events which is your go to for a less than lethal option? is it purely based upon the situation or do you prefer one solution over the other?.

Like everything else it depends. If the subject is wearing layered clothing, i'd go for my OC as the Taser probes dont do too well with thick clothing. That being said, when a subject is actively resisting, i'd prefer to use the Taser. I've been OC'd several times and it SUCKS, so deploying it is a last option. Also some people, especially those who are 11550 do not feel the effects of the OC. The Taser is nuerological so it doesnt matter about pain tolerance, the muscle tissue will constict and cause the subject to become incompacitated. My department also has bean bag shotguns so that is another option for me.

Also after speaking with plenty of criminals and inmates while i worked as a deputy in the jails, the prefer to be punched in the face over being placed in control holds.

[BarrettM99]

Can of the 3 way spray - sabre. OC, CS and UV dye
70 grams / 2.5 oz so CA friendly

Not sure I would ever worry about carrying more than the 2 1/2 oz limit.

Well if you douse down a crowd with a 16oz fogger.

+1 This ^^^^

[Redemption]

In the EP world the school that trained you is important because different schools teach different curriculum and some are better qualities than others . So if you are in a "good" school more jobs will come your way on that side of things .

I also strongly recommend international experience , by that I mean take a course in another country , that looks great on your resume and most likely will impress potential clients .

As for insurance , get a policy tailored for each job you will do , it is easier at the beginning especially . Once you made a name for yourself you can always get a better insurance co . Don't get me wrong , the insurance will be one of the major expense you have in the EP field .

Don't romanticize the EP world , when people ask me , this is how I describe it .
Years of boredom and possibly 5 seconds of terror . Some people are made for that job but most are not . I don't want to discourage you and if this is something you really want then you will attain your goal .

Does my time in Combat count as foreign course work? =) No romanticizing of the EP role on my part, I promise that. If I never have to commit any more violence that will be ok with me. Dont get me wrong Im not against application of force on my part.....and a part of me will still love it, but I think most of my adrenaline seeking behavior is a bit behind me.

What insurance companies provide this type of insurance?

Eh, Our impact weapons instructors have said the curriculum has changed and hitting joints is totally kosher now. Some of the old-timers talk about being trained to hit in the "fleshy" parts to prevent the risk of breaking a bone.

Now days (I've only been working since 2012) they teach us to hit bones: shins, knees, clavicle, arms, elbows. Just don't hit them in the head.

My baton class is I think second to last day of training so we havnt gotten there yet. I will mention when it happens what my class is training in particular when it happens though.

We too are trained to target joints, forearms, shins and the like. Its just not my preferred weapon. I'm 6'2, 240 so I rely on my size and strength to get me through most uses of force.

When i jam people up, i usually stay within someones 'bubble' to create a tactical uncomfortable, and somewhat verbally aggressive situation. I don't normally stand far enough back to pull out a taser or baton. And pepper spray, forget it, don't even carry the stuff.

I don't mean to sound like a ham fisted Neanderthal but these are the tactics i am comfortable with, and have yet to fail me. My fist never fails to deploy when i need it. Occasionally, i'll throw in a knee or chuck norris round house, but for the most part i just throw people on the ground and use my size and heavy equipment to keep them pinned down. Twisting them into pretzels is also quite effective.

I am the same 6 foot 230 pounds. Ive also found that if I can discourage the other party from even wanting to go there with me it is preferable to taking on the liability that comes with application of force. My school however is training to maintain space and rely on the tools where necessary (at least for the armed security portion) EP is next week so I imagine it will be a different set of SOP for that portion.

What is it with police officers being trained to hit joints , I thought pot was now legal in California

lol =)

Also keep in mind that some people the spray and taser will do nothing. I have seen it with training. We did full facial pepper spray training a couple years ago and we had a 20 year old female that it had no effect on her and she said it was like someone spraying her face with mild Taco Bell sauce. I started laughing and said typically folks don't react this way. A week later they sprayed her again and she looked at us with her eyes open and shrugged her shoulders. We also had a guy about 10 years ago get tased and he literally pulled it out of his chest and threw it on the ground. Some people these tools just don't do anything.

Agreed, I am likely one of the people who would not respond to pepper spray, due to repeated heavy exposure to CS gas, a shot of pepper spray is likely to just piss me off more.

Wow

This went from a simple question to a fun read....

Can of the 3 way spray - sabre. OC, CS and UV dye
70 grams / 2.5 oz so CA friendly

Not sure I would ever worry about carrying more than the 2 1/2 oz limit.

If you assault someone with OC, then I am not sure the size of the spray makes much of a difference.

Well if you douse down a crowd with a 16oz fogger.......

But if you spray someone with a 1/2 ounce, 2 1/2 ounce or 4 ounce spray, not sure anyone really cares about the size.... unless you were a jerk and sprayed the wrong people.....

the 2 1/2oz thing is a legal limit for Armed Security, LEO are able to obtain larger quantities we are not, at least that is how I was meant to understand it in school.

Like everything else it depends. If the subject is wearing layered clothing, i'd go for my OC as the Taser probes dont do too well with thick clothing. That being said, when a subject is actively resisting, i'd prefer to use the Taser. I've been OC'd several times and it SUCKS, so deploying it is a last option. Also some people, especially those who are 11550 do not feel the effects of the OC. The Taser is nuerological so it doesnt matter about pain tolerance, the muscle tissue will constict and cause the subject to become incompacitated. My department also has bean bag shotguns so that is another option for me.

Also after speaking with plenty of criminals and inmates while i worked as a deputy in the jails, the prefer to be punched in the face over being placed in control holds.

Agreed on the 11550, Ive seen footage of that before. Also when you have a certain level of training with riot agents LEO and Military you can learn to 'play through the pain'

I wish I had bean bag shotguns.... that would be awesome, I agree it has been a fun read. I also feel it is neat to see the differences between classroom teaching and what the people who work with the tools of the trade have to say. I feel it is going to inform my choices much better, and will potentially help me skip some of the hard lessons other have had to learn

[CinnamonBear723]

Agreed on the 11550, Ive seen footage of that before. Also when you have a certain level of training with riot agents LEO and Military you can learn to 'play through the pain'

I wish I had bean bag shotguns.... that would be awesome, I agree it has been a fun read. I also feel it is neat to see the differences between classroom teaching and what the people who work with the tools of the trade have to say. I feel it is going to inform my choices much better, and will potentially help me skip some of the hard lessons other have had to learn

Also a reason why most uses of force will never look good no matter how much 'training' politicians try to put us through.

That being said, one of the most powerful things you could use on me is OC spray. Man that stuff takes me out of commission big time!

[Bobby Ricigliano]

I have never seen the C2 in use, and nobody I know carries one. The X26 is still the industry standard.

If you get the large O.C. dispenser, they make drop leg holsters for it.

[retired]

I too, liked the stream OC for the reason given; the farther away the bad guy is when I utilized OC, the better. In an open area, I can see where your aim is more important. In a closed area, such as a custody facility where I worked as a supervisor, I can attest one doesn't have to be directly sprayed for it to work. There was many a time when OC was used in a module and I and others in the hallway 30' away felt the effects.

Re OC not having an effect on those under the influence, we had a long time inmate who was not under the influence of anything, but had been sprayed so often during his time in custody that it didn't bother him. He would swipe it off his bald head with his hand, lick it and ask for more.

Now as a retired leo, I have been unable to find any store that sells a stream OC to the public. I've been told its for le and security only. I don't know if that is correct, but that's been my experience. I would love to be able to buy the stream for my immediate family members.

Whatever form you obtain, you might want to consider buying the one that is a combo OC/CS (It might be CN as I've been gone too long to recall. Based on incidents at Twin Towers, it worked well. Due to our older ventilation system at CJ, we couldn't use it since we couldn't shut off various areas of the ventilation system. When I utilized 26 cans of OC in one smaller module, the effects were felt in Main Control located downstairs on the opposite side of the jail.