Taser/Spray Question

[Redemption]

I am currently going through armed security and executive protection training and I am hoping to get some experience based opinions regarding a couple of things. Its great that my school has an opinion but I generally look for opinions that come directly from the trenches.

Taser Questions:

So, as is usually my style I seem to have expensive tastes. Ive sort of fallen in love with the X2 but I just dont have a $1400 budget for a taser at the moment so Ive been trying to decide what I want.

If an LEO with field taser use can give me their thoughts on what to choose, where to get it pros cons etc. Anyone ever used the Taser Bolt? thoughts? should I rethink budget for ECD's?

Spray Questions:

My school seems to be of the opinion that Foam is the way to go, I can see why. but I can also see how a fogger might be good for creating a barrier... opinions and thoughts on what to choose and why?

[Roddd]

I'm batting .500 with Taser deployments, good enough for the Hall of Fame but not good enough to guarantee not going hands on with someone. Keep in mind, after that 5 second jolt is up, the guy who was just zapped is back to full strength with no ill effects. I say stay away from the Taser.

Get a "party can" for your spray. And make sure it's securely on your belt. It takes a lot of fight out of most people, but if you spray someone high on a stimulant, they'll ask you for more to put on their tacos.

[Rogue187]

Your thinking along the correct lines.. Have different levels of force available.

As for the TASER I personally have both the X26 and a C2.

The C2 appears to be the newer version of the Bolt. It's stun cycle is for 30 seconds. The X26 is only 5 seconds. So if you need to use the C2 it will continue to deliver the charge for 30 seconds and you can give another 30 seconds after the first. So if you need to evacuate the principle you can drop the Taser and go. Also Taser has a policy if you use the C2 and I'm guessing the Bolt for a self defense incident that you file a police report and send them the copy they will send you a replacement C2 or Bolt for free.

Now for the OC spray.. it will depend on where you are. Many schools recommend the foam spray. I personally like the foam myself but it depends on where you are using it. There are many different types of delivery systems.

Fog
Foam
Stream
Splatter Stream
Cone

And the difference in OC strengths too.

I recommend FOX labs and using their foam system.

Your mileage may vary..

I was an instructor for both Taser and OC..

[mdib870]

My department uses stream the foam is thick and dosent get you nearly as enough reach plus the foam they can scrape off and throw back at you.... not fun

[omgwtfbbq]

Stream for longer/more precise spray. Foam is a ***** to get off yourself too, or so I hear.

I like Defense Technologies (Owned by Safariland) First Defense sprays.

[P5Ret]

The problem with the OC fog is that if the wind shifts your screwed. They are great for crowd control, where you are masked up, not so good for close in executive protection details.

Foam has the advantage of not splattering back most of the time, but as mentioned above it can be scrapped off and thrown back toward you. Not good if it happens to get your principal who may or may not (read probably not) be able to fight through it and evacuate without a lot of help. That brings about a whole other set of issues to deal with.

[Redemption]

First of all thank you for all of the responses, its gotten me thinking about some factors that had not occurred to me. I think I need to be mindful of the ways in which some of the people I may be dealing with might use my own resources against me.

I'm batting .500 with Taser deployments, good enough for the Hall of Fame but not good enough to guarantee not going hands on with someone. Keep in mind, after that 5 second jolt is up, the guy who was just zapped is back to full strength with no ill effects. I say stay away from the Taser.

Get a "party can" for your spray. And make sure it's securely on your belt. It takes a lot of fight out of most people, but if you spray someone high on a stimulant, they'll ask you for more to put on their tacos.

That was something I was wondering about, some people (I tend to be one of those people) have an adrenaline response that can negate an awful lot of pain. Seeing some of the test zaps and what not seem to have one thing in common, no current fight or flight response taking place, no one that is in imminent fear of being hooked and booked. Saw LEO and some EP and armed security field deployment footage and some of them seem to lose all their fight, others dont.

What does the party can reference mean? (still a bit new to some of the jargon) Ive heard that about a few of the harder substances, pcp, crank, bath salts etc. Hopefully I wont ever be put in that position.

Your thinking along the correct lines.. Have different levels of force available.

As for the TASER I personally have both the X26 and a C2.

The C2 appears to be the newer version of the Bolt. It's stun cycle is for 30 seconds. The X26 is only 5 seconds. So if you need to use the C2 it will continue to deliver the charge for 30 seconds and you can give another 30 seconds after the first. So if you need to evacuate the principle you can drop the Taser and go. Also Taser has a policy if you use the C2 and I'm guessing the Bolt for a self defense incident that you file a police report and send them the copy they will send you a replacement C2 or Bolt for free.

Now for the OC spray.. it will depend on where you are. Many schools recommend the foam spray. I personally like the foam myself but it depends on where you are using it. There are many different types of delivery systems.

Fog
Foam
Stream
Splatter Stream
Cone

And the difference in OC strengths too.

I recommend FOX labs and using their foam system.

Your mileage may vary..

I was an instructor for both Taser and OC..

Our instructor mentioned something about the C2 and the newer longer cycle time. He was also telling us about the recommended 3 cycle at 5 seconds a pop guideline. Do many require a lot more incentive to become compliant?

My department uses stream the foam is thick and dosent get you nearly as enough reach plus the foam they can scrape off and throw back at you.... not fun

100% did not occur to me that they might scrape it off and try to throw it in my face, that is an excellent point. I am sort of rethinking foam now lol.

I know there are a number of factors I need to consider, area contamination, environmental factors (like wind) contamination to myself (from hooking up the suspect and helping them up etc) though I do plan to keep gloves on me to help limit that possibility.

Maybe best to choose a spray based upon whatever my post ends up being?

Stream for longer/more precise spray. Foam is a ***** to get off yourself too, or so I hear.

I like Defense Technologies (Owned by Safariland) First Defense sprays.

There are some distinct advantages to reach. Personally I want to give myself as much cushion space as I can so I think it might be a good option, gotta be very on target though, or its no effect, but then again having no effect is better than having my own spray tossed back at me lol

The problem with the OC fog is that if the wind shifts your screwed. They are great for crowd control, where you are masked up, not so good for close in executive protection details.

Foam has the advantage of not splattering back most of the time, but as mentioned above it can be scrapped off and thrown back toward you. Not good if it happens to get your principal who may or may not (read probably not) be able to fight through it and evacuate without a lot of help. That brings about a whole other set of issues to deal with.

Very good point about fog. You know its funny on my way home I was thinking foam for sure, but it seems like maybe I should choose based upon post, or rotate based upon post and client needs.

[Atomic Donut]

My department has issued the Taser x26p and Defense Technology (red can) OC Spray. I'd say 75% of my taser discharges have been successful. If only used the OC spray once and it brought down a 220 lb guy pretty quick. It was the 4oz small can of stream, not foam. Honestly, i have used my OC or Taser as much as i though i would. Smooth talk and control holds have gotten me through my career thus far with great success

[Spyder]

X26 is discontinued and support is not expected to be around long. X26p, or just spring for the x2, are the way to go. X2>x26p

[CinnamonBear723]

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

[FLIGHT762]

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

From personal experience, I would agree with this^^^^^^^^^^ and will add that I've found it to be the most personally satisfying than other mentioned methods.

[stormvet]

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

True, or a solid baton strike to the knee(while aiming for the thigh of course) works pretty well also.

[tom2]

Very OG .... I like it

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

[Redemption]

My department has issued the Taser x26p and Defense Technology (red can) OC Spray. I'd say 75% of my taser discharges have been successful. If only used the OC spray once and it brought down a 220 lb guy pretty quick. It was the 4oz small can of stream, not foam. Honestly, i have used my OC or Taser as much as i though i would. Smooth talk and control holds have gotten me through my career thus far with great success

Individuals in my situation are limited to 2.5oz I am finding that Stream seems to be the popular choice.

I agree, I would rather discourage a physical confrontation with my mind and body language when I can. Some people of course wont be reasoned with, in those events which is your go to for a less than lethal option? is it purely based upon the situation or do you prefer one solution over the other?

X26 is discontinued and support is not expected to be around long. X26p, or just spring for the x2, are the way to go. X2>x26p

Based upon the short time that I was able to play with the c2, the x26, the M26 and the X2 I sort of fell in love with the X2. Budget wise I just dont have it yet, but I am a saver by nature so maybe I will just save up for it? Ive sort of thought about a preowned c2 on a temp basis until I can buy an X2.

I find punching people in the face to be the most effective and trustworthy way to go.

This brought me a fair bit of personal joy. I too am more prone to rely on tone, body language and when those fail a good thump to the head usually rights a persons attitude, in my particular situation I have to be careful about anything that can be interpreted as excessive or 'intimidation'

From personal experience, I would agree with this^^^^^^^^^^ and will add that I've found it to be the most personally satisfying than other mentioned methods.

Nothing says mind your manners like a good thump to the head =)

True, or a solid baton strike to the knee(while aiming for the thigh of course) works pretty well also.

Im not sure how this scenario plays out LEO vs how it plays out for RSO or EP, I know every EP and armed security guy I have spoken within the field seem 'gun shy' about dismounting their baton for use. The consensus seems to be that the baton is the absolute last choice before lethal force due to litigation and the ease of implying excessive force... I have no practical experience there so maybe you can tell me.

[MrEd]

In the EP role I don't have the time to play around with a spray OR a taser , if I need to deploy any level of force to protect my client , I use overwhelming force to create a buffer between the threat and my client .
Telescoping Baton's are the favorite tool to use as it will stop a threat and prevent them from pursuing as one evacuates the client .

Going hands on is something I try to limit to people asking for autographs or things like that because . Everyone else gets a baton to the knee or shin . As an EP agent you do not stand and fight it out . Your Instructors should make that very clear . Your Job is to get off the X and bring your client to safety . putting an irritant in the air or deploying a Taser prevents you from doing that for a few seconds .