Basic training attrition rates.

[dwa]

i guess they didnt teach you reading comprehension.

[svsrider]

The posts by cavtrooper and tacticalcity are filled with so much bias and misinformation they aren't even worth responding to, they both are clearly blinded by their pride in their respective service. Nothing wrong with pride, but damn you guys really need to back off on the kool aid

[CavTrooper]

The posts by cavtrooper and tacticalcity are filled with so much bias and misinformation they aren't even worth responding to...

Yet you felt the need to respond!

Seriously though, please point out what "misinformation" I have posted, If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thank you.

[4thSBCT]

I was in a unit with a 1st sgt who got plucked for delta. He once gave a class for 5 hours on bullet flight and trajectory alone. Even the most hardcore guys got sick of it. I think what another poster was trying to say is that these guys in delta have no life outside the military. Becuase even when they arent delta they are planning 5 hour lectures when they get off work

[svsrider]

Yet you felt the need to respond!

Seriously though, please point out what "misinformation" I have posted, If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thank you.

No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:

US Army has the highest attrition rate in basic training, followed by the Navy, the Marine Corps and then the Air force.

So I guess if youre worried about basic training being too tough, you might wanna try the Marine Corps or the Air Force, seems that their basic training is the easiest to pass!

#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/basiccellphone.htm

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp

In the Marine Corps youve got MCRD and Perris Island.

#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"

I think thats another issue that effects the "image" of the Army. We have the National Guard wearing the same uniforms, patches and nametapes as Regular Army Soldiers. One weekend a month, two weeks a year Soldiers who are not always held to the same standard, who dont always have the same training, "representing" the Army. Thats something the Marine Corps doesnt have to deal with.

#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.

What is the average "boots on the ground" deployment time for the Marine Corps? As I understand it, its 6 to 9 months. Soldiers deploy for 1e to 15 months at a time. In an average 4 year enlistment its common for a Soldier to spend 24+ months in harms way. Even if a Marine deploys more times, they spend less time with "boots on the ground".

I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.

We all have our up and down side, we all have our good and bad people, all have our weak and strong points, we are two different branches with two different missions.

The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?

If you recall a few years ago, the Marine Corps leadership was complaining about Iraq

Who? Please give me an example

they weren't trained and equipped for SASO ops, etc, etc

Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.

don't have the ability or desire to adapt to the current type and tempo of operation going on around the world

#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.

As for training, we all receive great training, a lot of the Marine Corps training is administered by the Army. That's why I can't get butthurt when a Marine tells me they have the best training, its true, because they are trained b the best! On top of that, things that are reserved for the "special" units in the Corps are things that we do as our everyday gig, like airborne, air assault and such.

#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.

[dwa]

No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:



#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/basiccellphone.htm

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp



#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"



#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.



I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.



The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?



Who? Please give me an example



Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.



#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.



#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.

when was the last time you (the marines) hit a defended beach? there were combat jumps into Iraq, grenada off the top of my head. I'm not saying that since there hasn't been an assault on a defended beach in a while that training to do so is a waste of time but using your criteria you are.

[tacticalcity]

None of my comments were about specific pride of my service over others, other than "Hey, we do not suck like you're saying we do!".

I said basic training (Boot Camp) is hard by its very nature and if you expect it to be easy you're gonna fail. That's true.

I said my personal experience is that what is supposed to be the easiest boot camp was by no means easy. That's true.

I said the Marines boot camp is more physically challenging, but all of them are mentally challenging. That's true.

I said women were not incomptent or incapable of being excellent Airmen, Sailors, Soldiers and Marines. That's true.

Whenever I got something from a book, and not first hand knowledge I said so. I made clear distinctions between what I knew to be fact, and what I only believed to be fact. So if some of that is wrong...there is no way for me to know. But I never tried to claim otherwise.

When I was only playing Devil's Advocate I said so.

When I was only kidding, I made that very clear.

Basically, all I did was say that the Army is NOT more studly than the rest of us, and that women do belong in the military and will eventually find themselves in every aspect of the armed forces. While some may consider that a matter of opinion, I consider it fact.

I also said that if I had to be stuck in the middle of no where with members of another service (which happended to me a lot when I was in), I'd pick the Marines because the ones I served with were not only excellent warriors but great guys. The Army guys were cool for the most part, but the Navy guys (the ones I met at least) were jerks. That's true.

Which part of that do you disagree with? Or was I supposed to let some Army rant on and on about how the Army are studly and the rest of us suck?

[tacticalcity]

I will say, that for me personally, I joined the wrong service. I had no way of knowing it at the time, but I personally would have enjoyed being either in the Marines or in the Army much more than I did the Air Force. That's a tough pill to swallow. I am very proud of having served, and am very proud of the Air Force. They have an important mission. I just never really found my place there.

Being part of an Air Mobility Port Flight was about as close to being a Marine or Soldier as the Air Force has, aside from our Special Operations Teams of course. You are constantly deployed in harm’s way, among the very first boots on the ground, and your rifle is your life line…help is very far away. That part of my military service I truly enjoyed, but even that part of my service only gave me a glimpse of what I really wanted to be to be doing. When I ended up stuck behind a desk a couple years later...I absolutely hated it. The longer I was there, the older I got and the softer around the middle I got. No more required 5 mile a day runs in morning, no more paid trips to the gym. Just lots of coffee, and time stuck behind a computer (not unlike my civilian life today).

Bear in mind, I had never gone camping as kid. Or hunting. I had never done any of the types of things that would cause somebody to think they would enjoy being a Soldier or Marine rather than an Airman or Sailor. So I had no way of knowing I would find that type of life style fulfilling. I had been around airplanes my entire life, and boats...and I knew I enjoyed them both.

That is not to say the Army and Marines don't have desk jockeys, they do...and I would have hated being one in any branch of service. My fellow desk jokeys hated me too, I was terrible at it. I was so much better at my previous job it wasn't even funny. Having to deal with the downsides of military life, just to sit behind a desk and be terrible at it, just didn’t seem worth it. I hated it so much...I left the military and went to college immediately after finishing my four years of active service. Reenlistment was an option, which was surprising since I was terrible at my new job and since reenlistment in the Air Force was extemely competitve at the time, but I had enough.

After college I felt the sense of duty calling to me again. So I looked into becoming an officer. Why not, right? Might as well get something out my degree. I looked at the Air Force, because it was what I knew. They were not taking prior military service at all at that time. Next I looked into the Marines. I figured what the hell, go big or go home. They were VERY interested, which was exciting. I got about half way through the recruitment process, to the part where your next trip in to see the recruiter you sign your life away, when an advertising company in San Francisco offered me a job. I hadn't seen my family or friends (other than holidays) for eight years. I missed home. So I chose a civilian career instead. You could say I wimped out, but it wasn't because of fear. I knew what to expect from the military. I wasn't afraid of it at all. I just missed my family. The nephews were growing up without an uncle. I wanted to be there to watch them grow up. Besides, at that point civilian life seemed like more of challenge. The only real job I had ever had was the military. Civilian life was the great unknown.

I can't say I regret my decision. I am best friends with my nephews and little cousins. I made a huge difference in their lives, and they needed it. I will say I am very curious to know what my life would be like if I were still in the military.

9/11 was the hardest. After 9/11 I felt a nagging sense of failure to do my duty. It is nuts. I served. I did my part. Still, my country is at war and I feel more than a little guilty not being in uniform anymore. It's crazy...I can't explain it.

I looked into becoming a police officer, looked into joining various federal agencies. Nothing seemed to be a good fit. I’ve been out of the game too long. I even considered joining the reserves, but sadly I am too old now to be anything but a desk jockey...and I already know I won't find that rewarding at all. Besides, being a 36 year old Staff Sergeant would be weird. The reserves recruit officers from within, but at least you start off one stripe above where you left off…usually.

Yeah, yeah..."if you wanted excuses you would have joined the Air Force." Heard it all before.

My point is, each branch of service offers something unique. There is something there for everyone with a strong sense of duty. The trick is finding the right one for you, and then making the best of where you find yourself. I am not sure I did a good job of that...but I am very proud I served. I know I made a difference, at least in the first part of my enlistment. I brought food and medicine to the starving Africa, brought nukes back from Europe, helped protect the Kurds in Northern Iraq, stopped ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, helped rescue crews deploy to Oklahoma, and on and on. Ok, I only played a very tiny part in all of that...but I am proud of that teeny tiny part. As well I should be.

[Army GI]

Very well said tacticalcity. Only one thing, I never met anyone that was under the impression that the army was a "studly" service. That was always the Marines. They were the elite branch. And if it was army it was Rangers or something like that. Everyone I've met always just assumed the army was the most basic branch that pretty much anybody could join. That, and they "aren't as hardcore as the Marines."

[Desert_Rat]

9/11 was the hardest. After 9/11 I felt a nagging sense of failure to do my duty. It is nuts. I served. I did my part. Still, my country is at war and I feel more than a little guilty not being in uniform anymore. It's crazy...I can't explain it.

You don't have to,Thanks for serving.

[tacticalcity]

Oh to be 19 again...you young guys have no clue just how much you life by the balls.

[Army GI]

Oh to be 19 again...you young guys have no clue just how much you life by the balls.

Indeed. I'm 23 and I cry myself to sleep that I'm not 21 anymore. Year 19-23 is just a blur to me now

[tacticalcity]

23 and *****in' about being old already? I'd take 23. Of course, ask a 46 year old how he feels about 36 and he'll say the same.

At 23 you can still run fast, jump high, and chase the same hotties you did at 19...not so much at 36, at least not without looking like an idiot...a price I pay often.

[Army GI]

23 and *****in' about being old already? I'd take 23. Of course, ask a 46 year old how he feels about 36 and he'll say the same.

I know man, I'm just teasing you

At 23 you can still run fast, jump high, and chase the same hotties you did at 19...not so much at 36, at least not without looking like an idiot...a price I pay often.

lol, I hear a story coming on

[tacticalcity]

No...too many to tell.