Basic training attrition rates.

[johnthomas]

Yes, but at the same time you have thousands upon thousands of willing recruits who are disqualifed from service because of things like asthma, knee surgeries, criminal records, age and more.

In my case I've had a knee surgery, eye surgery and went through some therapy when I was younger for a brothers death. I'm disqualified and need 3 waivers. Yet I can run (not great), shoot, climb, jump, read, write, etc. While I'd love a combat arms position, I'd be happy working in transport (88M), being a load master, or some other non-combat position.

You have people like my cousin who have 1 non-violent felony, who'd love to straighten out their life and serve their country, but they can't because of one mistake they made when they were a dumb kid.

You have plenty of supply and clerk jobs, people with asthma or older people could and would happily work.

How many 40 and 50 year olds were trying to enlist when we invaded Iraq? I remember the news doing several articles and segments on it. You mean to tell me there weren't any jobs for them. The Army, Navy, Marines and Airforce doesn't need cooks? quartermasters? mechanics? carpenters? etc etc

Or does everyone who fills those jobs really need to be 18-20 years old and capable of running a mile in under 8 minutes?

The people are more then willing, those in charges are just to god damn picky. Lower the standard? What is the standard for serving in the military.


How the hell can this guy keep serving our country (not saying he's a bad guy, but he has no leg!)

http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=14343

Yet, if I want to serve my country the closest I'll ever get again is hasseling bums downtown?

Like any employer, once they hire you, hey are responsible for your injuries.
A guy I worked with had to get a waiver for his ankles, got in, served his time and got out, years later, he went to the VA and now is on disablility for injuries worsened in the Army, ankles. There are thousands of low life people that take advantage of the system like this, is it any wonder they would be careful when recruiting someone with past injuries. You can still serve your country, just in a different way, Hospitals, Old folk's home's. You don't have to be military to be a hero. Stop messing with the bums.

[tacticalcity]

Hell man, I would finish the degree. Life is better, especially if you end up stuck at a training base where everything is spit and polish 24-7. Life is just a tad easier in general with that little peice of paper. Nothing wrong with a shiny chunk of metal on your collar at all.

And people that say life has to be as hard as possible or you haven't lived are just trying to make themselves feel better about how crappy it has gone. Not bashing enlisted at all. I was enlisted. I am just saying, nothing wrong with being the guy in charge - though I am sure somebody here will post the usual "officers suck" comment.

Enlisted that bash officers is about as cheesy and serious as bashing each other's service. Only the real idiots actually mean it. Most of us are just joking around just to have something to joking around about. Overwelming majority of us woulld have jumped at the opportunity to attend OCS if it came up. Some no, most yes. We would need to be really attached to what we were doing to not want to get the pay bump and added responsibiliy. Winners always want the ball. Only reason not to take the opportunity is you feel you already have the ball and don't want to put it down.

It would be one thing if they were going to let you be Delta, and you craved the rush of being a shooter, and getting bars meant you would be back at base camp instead. But since that's an unlikely career path given the past injuries, then all I see is an upside to being an officer vs. enlisted.

It's a no brainer man. They made the choice very easy for you. Get the degree, go for the bars. I'd sell you your first salute, but my saluting days are done!

[Bizcuits]

Hell man, I would finish the degree. Life is better, especially if you end up stuck at a training base where everything is spit and polish 24-7. Life is just a tad easier in general with that little peice of paper.

Which is pretty much where my goals have shifted. Now that I'm older, a home owner and in a serious relationship, I'm not looking to go E-1 11B again. I want to do it smart and get as much as I can out of it. I'm just impatient and am afraid of possible future problems. What mayl stop me again in 2-3 years?

[tacticalcity]

Yeah, I think I missed the cut off by 2 years for bars on my shoulder. Too damn old. I know they will offer a waiver up to 34, but I think that includes a credit for each year of service already, I am 36. If I were to go back in I would have to do it as an enlisted man, and I have way too many bills for that.

So that alone is what keeps me grounded in reality. Those days are done for me.

If they ever increase that window I'll start having delusions of grandeur.

[socaldsal]

There is a place for them called a retirement home. LOL J/K.

LOL

I think the funniest thing I've seen is when he flipped out when being asked if he were Vietnamese.

[CavTrooper]

No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:



#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

Marine Corps has "Recruit training" not "boot camp.

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

You could, but it doesnt make it so.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

Marine Cors PT standards are different, not harder.
Marines do pull-ups, Army does push ups, no comparision.
Marines do crunches, Army does sit-ups, the Army standard is higher.
Marines run 3 miles, Army runs two, Marines per mile time is over 1 minute slower than the Army standard.

Marine Corps spends alot of time on Marine Corps history, swim week and "team week", the Army doesnt. Please let the people know what "team week" is.

#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

Huh?

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/basiccellphone.htm

Makes sense to me, instead of standing in line at a payphone, make your call and get back to training!

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp

you are right.

#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

Wow, thanks!

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"

thanks again.

#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.

If you dont know the difference between Reserves and National Guard, please learn.

I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.

lame. One or two examples does not make my assertion "false". I was speaking "generally", and "generally" the Army spends more time on the groud then the Marine Corps.

The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?

If you dont know the difference between historical mission and present mission, you need to learn a little bit more about the Marine Corps.

Who? Please give me an example

Commandant of the Marine Corps:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6718198

Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.

no one is saying they dont.

#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

See above.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.

Commandant disagrees. see above.

#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

More Marines have failed Ranger or Airborne than have made honor grad. Youd think if they were so good, they would be tops every time!

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

I wonder the same thing everytime I see a FR or Angelico guy wiht jump wings.

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.

More Soldiers have made combat jumps in the current operations than Marine have made beach landings. 173rd, SF and CIA in northern Iraq and Afganistan for example.

Commandant of the Marine Corps says:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2128949/posts

the United States does not need a Marine Corps …

Talk about a waste of taxpayer money!

The "bias and misinformation" is strong with you my friend... dont bogart the kool-aid!

[phroggunner]

CavTrooper,
While you do make valid points in your post(s) above, I'm sure you know you are quoting the Commandant of the Marine Corps out of context (unless you are drinking the aforementioned kool-aid yourself).
The article you have linked demonstrates General Conway's foresight to both the stability of Iraq, and the deterioration of the situation in Afghanistan:

"The time is right for Marines in general terms to leave Iraq," said Marine Corps Commandant James Conway.

That war has become largely a nation-building mission rather than the pitched fighting in which the Marine Corps excels, Conway said.

Conway said he wants to see up to 20,000 Marines deployed instead to the building fight in Afghanistan, especially in the south where insurgents and the Taliban and al-Qaida benefit from both a nearby safe haven and booming trade in narcotics.

"When you've got those two elements you've got the potential for a long-term insurgency," he said. "That's where the Marines ought to be. That's what we offer the nation," he said.

[holasrmateo]

The Army has the highest attrition rates because they don't filter people to the same extent as there other services. They accept the most waivers for everything and have the lowest ASVAB on average. If you have a medical wavier and the Marines say no, the Army will take you. If you have a GED and the AF says no, the Army will take you. An obvious exaggeration, they do turn away people, but they have a wider and less selective pool of applicants.

As far as the AF is concerned, being the most selective service, you'd imagine attrition rates being relatively low. It's like arguing the Harvard is an easy school because most people graduate with a degree and community colleges with 50% attrition rates must be the most difficult. Bottom line though, medical conditions aside, basic training (or whatever you want to call it) for any service is not designed to weed you out. You have to work but you have to be an idiot to fail.

[tacticalcity]

I agree with just about everything you said. Except the last part. While I do not know 100% for sure they kicked the guys out of basic when they took them away (because I made it through without having it happen to me personally), but almost half our flight was pulled and did not graduate with us. The threat was always that we would either be recycled (start over) or be sent packing. Whether the last half of that threat was followed up on...I do not know. But I would think it would be, or it wouldn't be a very effective threat. Word would get out. I do know 3 people we finished with were in fact recycled. One was less than two weeks from graduation and was sent back to week one. While one or two of the people pulled were indeed idiots. The majority were not. People got pulled from our flight for extremely minor infractions, and in some cases imaginary ones. So my experience was, all you had to be not to pass was unlucky. Simply failing to stay alert and prepared meant you were in a world of hurt. The upside is, the guys who were recycled knew what to expect and did better the second time around. They were forbidden to discuss what was coming...or get a one way buss ticket home. The most we could get out of them was how far they got before they were recycled. The wouldn't even tell us what they did wrong.

Some people were sent home for academic reasons. Get less than 75% (if I am remembering that number correctly) on two tests and you automatically failed basic. For me, staying awake during the lectures and the tests themselves was the hardest part. All I wanted to do was go to sleep. The material is not hard at all. The sleep depravation, lack of food (first couple weeks they rush you out the door after only a few spoonfulls of food), and the heat brings you to a point where you simply can't seem to think. It gets easier as you go along. It never gets easy, not until you graduate. Then suddenly the military is a totally different world.

Basic is meant to be hard. You are meant to prove yourself, and you will. When its over you have a lot more self-confidence than when you showed up. You will be ready for some real responsibility.

I am not trying to scare anybody off. I am just saying get your head right. It is all about your mindset. Convince yourself you will pass. Nothing is going to shake you. Keep your eyes and mind open and your mouth shut. You'll do well.

Here is a free tip...if they ask you if you like to bowl...do not raise your hand and say you do. You'll end up on your knees cleaning the toilets and urinals with tooth brush the entire time you're there.

The only time you ever want to raise your hand is when the ask you if you want to volunteer for Special Operations. The sales pitch will be awful. They'll tell you how hard it is going to be, and how much it will suck. Hello, your like already sucks...you are in basic training. If you have good vision and nothing in your background will automatically disqualify you volunteer. It will beat the hell out of a desk job. Why didn't I you ask? They wouldn't let me. Had coke bottle glasses at the time, and Lasik wasn't out yet. I would have given my right nut to be a Combat Controller or Pararescueman.

That is the only time they ask for volunteers and it isn't some sort of trick.

[Veggie]

Mariners and Army basic being harder is understandable. They do the grunt work. The war fighters, the guys on the ground in the ****. Navy and AF guys sit behind big machines doing their fighting. Not that I am slanting them in any way shape or form.

I have great pride for all service men and women. Thanks for your service.

[holasrmateo]

...

[tacticalcity]

I think you mean to say kicking you out is an empty threat. I think you have the term messed up. If they recycle you, they get to keep their investment...and just fine tune you a bit.

Recycling you means you have to repeat your training from an earlier stage of training. Believe me when I say recycling is very common place in the USAF. Almost half our flight got recycled. Then again, there wasn't a war on at the time. So they could take their time training us. One guy destroyed property, so he probably got booted. Another tried to pretend he was crazy, so he probably got booted out. They made sure he got to watch our bus leave as we graduated, they assigned him to the medical flight for an eval and took their time. The rest were either transplanted into a completely different squadron (which you would think you would have heard about after basic and I never did) or recycled like they said they were doing with them. I knew lots of people later in my career that had been recycled. They were not treated like screw-ups or anything. It was common place. They just had to spend more time in basic.

Go into it expecting it to be a challenge that you WILL overcome...and you will do yourself proud. Expect it to be a trip to Disneyland and you'll be headed home with your tail between your legs embarassed as hell. Mindset is everything.

[holasrmateo]

...

[tom e]

Hey guys, new here but I thought I'd chime in on this thread. When I went to Army basic at Fort Sill (spring of 02) we did have females there, so I don't think they all go to Jackson.
I was a cook and already had civilian training. Usually, as I understand it I would have gone to Jackson and then AIT at Lee, but since they weren't sending me to AIT they just put me in the soonest basic coming which happened to be with the Artillery guys.
I wouldn't say that basic was really 'hard' but I did have to get up to shape to get out, lol. Not that it was hard to do I was 27 so my PT standards were lower than most of the younger guys there. Actually at the end I did meet their standards as well (that was something I just wanted to do for myself, not be outdone by the youngsters, lol) I agree it could be a lot harder, but for what? I was sufficiently trained for anything I ever had to do in my four years. Other things like convoy security I learned from my unit before we deployed.
I guess for those who want to go through hell, they can still try and go do the other hooah schools!
That said, I would certainly chuckle a bit if I heard someone describing the hell of Army basic..

[Army GI]

tom e, welcome to calguns!

It's interesting to know that you had females going through basic at Ft. Sill. When I went through two years later, Ft. Sill was all male.

The only thing that was hell about army basic was the gas chamber. I felt like I was literally going to die.

Everything else was like, "Really? We have to do that? Aw, F.T.A." lol