Basic training attrition rates.

[tacticalcity]

More and more career fields are opening up to women. Expect that trend to continue. I was a Luke, AFB when the Air Force got its first female fighter pilot and got to meet her she was very cool, very smart, very pretty and very tough. Now there are a ton of them. Eventually there will be female Rangers, Special Forces, Combat Controllers, Pararescuemen, Recon Marines, Navy Seals and so on. It is just a matter of time. Not all women would be incapable of it, there are plenty of women that could do it...just not at as high a ratio as men.

It is more about politics than anything else. The fear is that if a woman is hopelessly wounded in combat, the other male soldiers would continue to try and save her even if it meant getting killed because they have been socialized to view women as someone they MUST protect no matter what. Additionally, America has a hard enough time backing a war when we see pictures of mortally wounded men on TV. The fear is that if CNN shows video of a woman with her legs blown off people will lose all support for the war, even if it is a worthwhile effort. We don't have the stomach for war as it is. So that one I buy more than the other arguments. Over time, political pressure to be more inclusive will override those fears.

[professionalcoyotehunter]

I have seen many women who could easily go through Ranger school much easier than some of the recycles and pogs.

[dwa]

More and more career fields are opening up to women. Expect that trend to continue. I was a Luke, AFB when the Air Force got its first female fighter pilot and got to meet her she was very cool, very smart, very pretty and very tough. Now there are a ton of them. Eventually there will be female Rangers, Special Forces, Combat Controllers, Pararescuemen, Recon Marines, Navy Seals and so on. It is just a matter of time. Not all women would be incapable of it, there are plenty of women that could do it...just not at as high a ratio as men.

It is more about politics than anything else. The fear is that if a woman is hopelessly wounded in combat, the other male soldiers would continue to try and save her even if it meant getting killed because they have been socialized to view women as someone they MUST protect no matter what. Additionally, America has a hard enough time backing a war when we see pictures of mortally wounded men on TV. The fear is that if CNN shows video of a woman with her legs blown off people will lose all support for the war, even if it is a worthwhile effort. We don't have the stomach for war as it is. So that one I buy more than the other arguments. Over time, political pressure to be more inclusive will override those fears.

unless their body fat to muscle ratio and shoulder geometry is changing i just don't see it happening. look at the different pt tests there's a reason women can max with somewhere around 30 something push ups, the only way i think you see a "GI Jane" is if they lower standards specifically to allow it. this that aren't dependant on biceps however i think they sometimes do very well at, Ive also seen females pull some bull**** to get out of an honest days work. personally i think having multiple standards is sexists and there should be one pt test and one way to wear the uniform, either were are equal or we are not.

[professionalcoyotehunter]

I partially agree with that also. although I have seen quite a few women out perform men. Mostly Marine women. I have also seen plenty of men get out of work for stupid reasons ie. Sick call Rangers.

[dwa]

I partially agree with that also. although I have seen quite a few women out perform men. Mostly Marine women. I have also seen plenty of men get out of work for stupid reasons ie. Sick call Rangers.

but were the men they were out preforming stellar examples of good soldiers? i found sick call rangerettes using their period to get out of stuff infuriating.

[professionalcoyotehunter]

Wouldn't you use your power of the period if you had one? I seen guy with the diarrhea get out of most everything.

[dwa]

Wouldn't you use your power of the period if you had one? I seen guy with the diarrhea get out of most everything.

no because i wasn't a dirt bag, i have little sympathy for men on their rag that try to get out of stuff either, but if you have a set amount of personnel say 30 and 10 of then have a "condition" that precludes them from work, 33% of your work doesn't disappear. Additionally while it takes two to tango one of them gets shipped home if they get pregnant. i don't think women should not be in the military and like i stated earlier the best k dub pilot was a female but i don't think i would have wanted her to be in my fire team. women are great at a multitude of things and are not well suited to some others blame it on humans having different sexes.

[tacticalcity]

Playing Devil’s advocate for a minute...because I really don't care one way or another about this issue (I'm not a woman, don't have daughters and my days of military service are long behind me).

Based strictly on your argument there are a lot of jobs in Special Ops that would be a possibility for women.

Some of the best marathon and triathlon runners in the world are women. Endurance tests seem to be their thing, and they have exceptional lower body strength.

Take the most elite unit, Delta Force. If Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Force is to be believed, upper body strength is not what their selection process is about. They are almost exclusively about endurance and ability to think when your body begins to fail. If you look at the picture in his book of a group of Delta Force guys, they are all scrawny little guys and not Arnold types. He specifically says the buff guys find their size to be a liability. He describes extremely long hikes, day-in and day-out followed up with non-stop mind games. Lots of word games that would confuse me even after a full nights rest. The tests are intentionally unfair, and the drop a lot of people for no other reason than they can, just to see how the others react to the unfairness of it and to increase the stress level. But he does not describe bench pressing contests or pushups at all. So based on his book, there is little doubt a woman would have as much chance as a man during the selection process with regards to the physical requirements. Since the tests are geared towards things they tend to be good at. Anyone with a history of running marathons and doing triathlons would do well in that selection process. Us normal mortals would have a very hard time. After selection, when they shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP a day in live fire training exercises with other team members sitting in front of targets, that is where upper body strength begins to matter and my argument falls apart. The right woman however, could handle it.

They should do alright any time water is involved. As a general rule they have more body fat, and muscle doesn't float. The super big buff guys have a lot harder time becoming a Navy Seal or a Coast Guard diver because of the time they spend in the water. So in one major aspect of those jobs, they have a leg up. Again, we do come back to your argument about upper body strength which eliminates the average woman. The seals stress it pretty heavily, not sure about Coast Guard divers but they probably do as well. However, the average man could not do those jobs either. Only the most exceptional person would make it. A woman who is a fitness nut would have a much better chance than the average Joe.

Eventually politics is going to win out. It always does. For example. There are hundreds of arguments against gays in the military. Eventually political pressure won out. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, it's the way it is now. The same will eventually happen with women in all sorts of combat rolls.

Hopefully it will be done in a common sense way. No separate tests. No gender norming. They either pass the same tests, or they don't get the job. If they can do the job then it makes sense to let them do it. If they can't, then it doesn't.

For the record, I never liked the idea of gender norming the tests. I want to know the person in the fox hole next to me can pull their own weight regardless of gender. I want to know I only have to worry about doing my job and not theirs. If they can do the job...why should you or I stop them? The problem with rigging the tests is they do allow a lot of people to get in that shouldn't be. It is based on the idea they they will be in the rear with the gear anyway. But in today's military, women find themselves in combat all the time. Strictly speaking they shouldn't, but the real world does not work like a text book and there are no safe areas when fighting terrorists. So yes, I agree...the tests should be harder just to get in. That said, plenty of woman could cut it even if the tests were the same.

[4thSBCT]

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

[Dekker]

Is it true that women who get pregnant are given the option to separate from the Army? I remember a few Recruiters on the official Army forum telling me this little tidbit of info. And it came back up again because a co-worker told me her single niece was tired of being in the Army but still had a few years left in her contract(and no doubt a deployment mixed in there) and was contemplating getting pregnant by her boyfriend just to be discharged in an honorable code. Knowing her, she would have most likely gotten pregnant for the purpose of being separated and then would have either aborted or given the baby up for adoption. That's how serious some people are to get out.......

That's a pretty sweet trump card women hold.

[4thSBCT]

I think it only applies to women who get preg and are single. The same thing can happen to men who have or are awarded sole custody of their children.

[dwa]

Inside Delta Force is to be believed, upper body strength is not what their selection process is about. They are almost exclusively about endurance and ability to think when your body begins to fail. If you look at the picture in his book of a group of Delta Force guys, they are all scrawny little guys and not Arnold types. He specifically says the buff guys find their size to be a liability. He describes extremely long hikes, day-in and day-out followed up with non-stop mind games. Lots of word games that would confuse me even after a full nights rest. The tests are intentionally unfair, and the drop a lot of people for no other reason than they can, just to see how the others react to the unfairness of it and to increase the stress level. But he does not describe bench pressing contests or pushups at all. So based on his book, there is little doubt a woman would have as much chance as a man during the selection process with regards to the physical requirements. Since the tests are geared towards things they tend to be good at. Anyone with a history of running marathons and doing triathlons would do well in that selection process. Us normal mortals would have a very hard time. After selection, when they shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP a day in live fire training exercises with other team members sitting in front of targets, that is where upper body strength begins to matter and my argument falls apart. The right woman however, could handle it.

They should do alright any time water is involved. As a general rule they have more body fat, and muscle doesn't float. The super big buff guys have a lot harder time becoming a Navy Seal or a Coast Guard diver because of the time they spend in the water. So in one major aspect of those jobs, they have a leg up. Again, we do come back to your argument about upper body strength which eliminates the average woman. The seals stress it pretty heavily, not sure about Coast Guard divers but they probably do as well. However, the average man could not do those jobs either. Only the most exceptional person would make it. A woman who is a fitness nut would have a much better chance than the average Joe.

Eventually politics is going to win out. It always does. For example. There are hundreds of arguments against gays in the military. Eventually political pressure won out. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, it's the way it is now. The same will eventually happen with women in all sorts of combat rolls.

Hopefully it will be done in a common sense way. No separate tests. No gender norming. They either pass the same tests, or they don't get the job. If they can do the job then it makes sense to let them do it. If they can't, then it doesn't.

For the record, I never liked the idea of gender norming the tests. I want to know the person in the fox hole next to me can pull their own weight regardless of gender. I want to know I only have to worry about doing my job and not theirs. If they can do the job...why should you or I stop them? The problem with rigging the tests is they do allow a lot of people to get in that shouldn't be. It is based on the idea they they will be in the rear with the gear anyway. But in today's military, women find themselves in combat all the time. Strictly speaking they shouldn't, but the real world does not work like a text book and there are no safe areas when fighting terrorists. So yes, I agree...the tests should be harder just to get in. That said, plenty of woman could cut it even if the tests were the same.

id agree with you there i9f you have a super stud woman marathon runner type she should be doing some CIA type badassness not wasting their talent in an 11b slot.

[dwa]

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

tell that to her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

[tacticalcity]

women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.

You are dating very different women than I seem to meet. The ones I end up with are all soulness spawns from hell without any emotion other than hatred and don't have a single nurturing bone in their body. Then again, maybe I just bring that out them!

[tacticalcity]

id agree with you there i9f you have a super stud woman marathon runner type she should be doing some CIA type badassness not wasting their talent in an 11b slot.

No one in Delta is there because the military was their only option in life. Every one of them had the brains to do just about anything they wanted. These are people who would have risen to the top in whatever they chose to do in life, not just this. They are heavily recruited by other agencies and private industry and not just as shooters. These guys, for the most part, choose to stay.

So to say they would be doing something "better" than Delta is nuts. There is nothing better than Delta. Just ask them...oh wait...we don't know who they are. :-)

My argument is based completely on what I've read. If I met a Delta guy while I was in, I didn't know it. Though it was possible. We deployed with Seals, Special Forces, Rangers, Forced Recon, Various USAF Spec Ops Units, Department of Energy Guys, State Department Guys, and so on all in a support role. Basically waved good buy and said "have fun we'll be here when you get back" - not really but you get the idea. Me not stud - them all super studs. So it's possible somebody in there was Delta. They had no need to tell us who they were or what they were doing there, and we didn't ask. After a while, it became clear some of those training missions were not entirely just about training...but we really didn't care. We had a job. We did it.

Of the Spec Ops guys I met I based my opinion of them by how the treated those who worked for them. I wasn't able to see them in action, but I assume they are all pretty much studs on an equal level...just each emphasizing different areas more than others.

The Marines were cool to everyone, which surprised me. They are supposed to have an attitude, but they didn't. They were eager to lend a hand and keep themselves busy, so we put them to work. They constantly wanted to stay busy...which was great because we deployed seriously undermanned and every body counts.

The various Army units were cool, aside from their Command Sergeant Majors who were complete jerks. They seemed convinced that even though we're in a different service, and on our own Temporary Air Base that we setup we needed to conform to their regulations...regulations our branch of the service did not have. Eventually we started looking for differences in our regs just so we could get away with ticking them off. They fell for it every time, their own men really enjoyed that. After a while I started think they fell for it on purpose, just to give their troops a show to watch.

The Seals simply ignored us, aside from their CO who only spoke to us when he needed something. They'd see you could use a hand with something, and they'd sit there and stare at you instead of volunteering to help. If you asked they would ignore you. They'd rather delay their time table then do a job that was beneath them, while the Marines felt no job was beneath them. Most of the time the Seals simply refused to acknowledge anybody outside their unit existed or mattered...unless they needed something. They acted like a bunch of 5 year olds. Seals or not, I called 'em on it with some very choice words...expected to get knocked on my rear and not caring...they just kept on walkin' like they never heard me...good thing too cus I didn't stand a chance. One Seal spent an entire 3 week deployment reading a paperback with Fabio on the cover. He was supposed to be training with the other units, or so those other units told us, he just read that damn book. Everyone called him Fabio from that point on. He ignored them. Needless to say, I was not impressed...and neither was anyone else. I am sure the Seals thought it was pretty funny. Anything to stay entertained. A couple guys I grew up with were Seals, brothers two years apart in age. Kinda jerks as kids, by my jerks so I looked passed it. Now they are Private Security Contractors. They thought the Fabio story was funny as can be, and seemed to think they even knew who that guy was. The ignoring everyone and refusing to lend a hand when it was needed part ticked them off. Said they would never do such a thing, and would much rather stay busy than sit around in the shade.

If my rear was on the line…any of them would do! If I’m gonna be stuck in the desert with nothing to do and no one to fight and no one else to talk to…I’ll take the Marines. Those guys were a riot!