Leaving your loaded CCW gun in the car.

[SkyHawk]

As far as the PC for criminal storage of a firearm:

[I]PC25100. (a) Except as provided in Section 25105, a person commits
the crime of "criminal storage of a firearm in the first degree" if
all of the following conditions are satisfied:
(1) The person keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that
are under the person's custody or control.
(2) The person knows or reasonably should know that a child is
likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the
child's parent or legal guardian, or that a person prohibited from
possessing a firearm or deadly weapon pursuant to state or federal
law is likely to gain access to the firearm.
...

Don't quote PC25100 without quoting the next reg in the chapter, PC25105:

25105. Section 25100 does not apply whenever any of the following
occurs:
(a) The child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry
to any premises by any person.
(b) The firearm is kept in a locked container or in a location
that a reasonable person would believe to be secure.
(c) The firearm is carried on the person or within close enough
proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use
the firearm as if carried on the person.
(d) The firearm is locked with a locking device, as defined in
Section 16860, which has rendered the firearm inoperable.
(e) The person is a peace officer or a member of the Armed Forces
or the National Guard and the child obtains the firearm during, or
incidental to, the performance of the person's duties.
(f) The child obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a
lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person.
(g) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on premises that are
under the person's custody or control has no reasonable expectation,
based on objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to
be present on the premises.

If someone obtains your firearm through a BREAK IN or BURGLARY, you are off the hook. I would assume if we are presuming PREMISES to include VEHICLES, then if someone gets ahold of your gun because that same someone or ANY someone breaks into your car, you are not responsible for what happens next. And that makes sense. We all can't keep our guns in Fort Knox. There is ALWAYS a way to break into a locked container, be it a safe, a house, or your car, or a locked safe in your locked home or car. If you take precautions by locking a gun in your car, have you not taken responsible precaution? You can't be expected to lock a gun in a safe, within a safe, in a lock box bolted to the frame, in your locked car. Russian nesting safes anyone? Or if you live alone, never have children over as guests, and you keep a gun in your bedside drawer, YOU are not at fault if a 17 year old breaks into your house and gets the gun. PC25105 spells that out clearly. Why then would it not apply to your car?

In any case, I always keep a container with a lock in my car with the option to tether or chain it to my seat. This is a cheap ($25), added layer of legal (and perhaps practical) protection IMO (see (b) in 25105). But in that case I do not unload my CCW gun unless there is a law that says I cannot have a loaded gun in the specific place where I am parking. Why would you unload otherwise? Unloading and loading in public is not smart IMO. And constantly loading the same round in a semi auto pistol is just asking for a click when you need a bang someday. Even without CCW you are allowed to transport guns in a locked container, with loaded mags in the same container. Does that mean you can't stop at a restaurant to eat on such a travel because someone may break into your car and steal your rifles or handguns along with the containers they are locked in and with the loaded mags in said container? A trunk with no access from the passenger cabin also counts as a locked container for transport purposes. Is there a law that says you cannot leave such a locked weapon unattended while you stop and eat, use a gas station restroom etc? Are you supposed to haul all those with you into the mall whenever you stop? I'm all for education but cite the law and be thorough.

[CBR_rider]

Don't quote PC25100 without quoting the next reg in the chapter, PC25105:

Like I said, I'm not sure a temporarily parked motor vehicle qualifies as a "premise" for PC25100.... Which seems to be about the only slightly similar (thought not applicable to the OP's scenario) penal code that the OP was possibly worried about violating. And if a vehicle isn't a "premise," then one couldn't be charged with violating it anyway even if they left their loaded firearm in the vehicle with their child who picked it up and shot someone else with it... I'm pretty sure we are on the same page here

[ElDub1950]

That is the real question - why do some believe this behavior is illegal?

As already noted, LTC exempts the holder from 'concealed in public' and 'loaded in public', with respect to weapons listed on the license. (See the FAQ in this forum, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=388997)

Since this is so, with what violation would an LTC holder be charged for leaving his/her loaded, listed-on-the-license, handgun in his/her vehicle?

That question is distinct from the questions 'would YOU do that?' and 'is it the wisest course of action?'.

Thanks for the input. I can't find or think of any reason that this is illegal.

Of course it would be a very unique scenario that a LEO would ever become aware there was a gun in an unoccupied car. But in a side hijack discussion in another thread folks were adamant that it was a problem so I wanted to get it in this forum.

[Eagle Eyes]

The only problem I see is if you read the Concealed Weapons Permit laws you do see the reference "on your person".


So not to get caught up in another arguement as we did with the whole FFL 03 + COE 1 in 30 day rule mess (which I ended up being right about).

The laws give exemptions for those with CCW permits to be able to carry both concealed and loaded while in a vehicle. The CCW permit laws refer to the permit allowing concealed carry on your person.

The question is if you took your handgun and stuck it in the center console or hidden in a pocket on your door is it still concealed on your person?

A motorized vehicle is not considered a residence or a storage container but a vehicle for use in transporting persons and/or items. In fact even if you lived in a RV or camper shell it is still classified as a vehicle unlike a mobile home attached to the ground.

If you took your weapon and had it on the seat loaded and in plain view you would obviously be violating the law by having a exposed and loaded weapon (concealed carry means concealed at all times unless being used).


So I think this is a case of the law not being entirely clear and interpeted several different ways.

[Decoligny]

The only problem I see is if you read the Concealed Weapons Permit laws you do see the reference "on your person".


So not to get caught up in another arguement as we did with the whole FFL 03 + COE 1 in 30 day rule mess (which I ended up being right about).

The laws give exemptions for those with CCW permits to be able to carry both concealed and loaded while in a vehicle. The CCW permit laws refer to the permit allowing concealed carry on your person.

The question is if you took your handgun and stuck it in the center console or hidden in a pocket on your door is it still concealed on your person?

A motorized vehicle is not considered a residence or a storage container but a vehicle for use in transporting persons and/or items. In fact even if you lived in a RV or camper shell it is still classified as a vehicle unlike a mobile home attached to the ground.

If you took your weapon and had it on the seat loaded and in plain view you would obviously be violating the law by having a exposed and loaded weapon (concealed carry means concealed at all times unless being used).


So I think this is a case of the law not being entirely clear and interpeted several different ways.

No, you see the reference to "CAPABLE of being carried upon the person".

While leaving a loaded firearm inside even a locked vehicle may not be the smartest thing to do, to the best of my knowledge it doesn't directly violate any specific penal code.

The major issue is if something happens where someone else has access to the vehicle. For instance, if traveling with a spouse, if he/she has keys to the vehicle and is in the general vicinity of the vehicle that has a loaded firearm concealed inside of it, he/she may end up being charged with a 24500 violation.


25400. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when the person does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle that is under the person's control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. (2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which the person is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.25655. Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150).

[Tripper]

I think it would hinge on if the vehicle is in/on a public street, where vehicle code applies.


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[Decoligny]

I think it would hinge on if the vehicle is in/on a public street, where vehicle code applies.


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How would vehicle code come into play when dealing with a concealed loaded handgun in a car?

[Tripper]

Leaving your loaded CCW gun in the car.

I was thinking it should only matter , in public, on public road, if it's in the car, absent a person , seems VC should apply because the PC is applicable to a person where there is no person, as it's being stored there,
Thinking outside the box

That being if you are trying to find an illegal act here, it's not in the PC so maybe there's one in VC that could be used


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[Tripper]

Oh
Actually
ccw is exempt from 25400



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[Tripper]

The only problem I see is if you read the Concealed Weapons Permit laws you do see the reference "on your person".





So not to get caught up in another arguement as we did with the whole FFL 03 + COE 1 in 30 day rule mess (which I ended up being right about).



The laws give exemptions for those with CCW permits to be able to carry both concealed and loaded while in a vehicle. The CCW permit laws refer to the permit allowing concealed carry on your person.



The question is if you took your handgun and stuck it in the center console or hidden in a pocket on your door is it still concealed on your person?



A motorized vehicle is not considered a residence or a storage container but a vehicle for use in transporting persons and/or items. In fact even if you lived in a RV or camper shell it is still classified as a vehicle unlike a mobile home attached to the ground.



If you took your weapon and had it on the seat loaded and in plain view you would obviously be violating the law by having a exposed and loaded weapon (concealed carry means concealed at all times unless being used).





So I think this is a case of the law not being entirely clear and interpeted several different ways.

The law does not state 'while in your vehicle'
25655 ( I think) exempts 25400 entirely
Nothing said about 'while in vehicle'



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[Eagle Eyes]

????

How else would the loaded firearm you carry concealed on you get into your vehicle without you in it?????


The law does not state it is illegal for the vehicle to have a loaded firearm in it and that the vehicle would be arrested for that violation, the persons IN the vehicle would be.

[Tripper]

Leaving your loaded CCW gun in the car.

So, you still don't get that a ccw exempts you from 25400

I'm not sure I've seen anything regarding 'on your person' in relation to ccw either

Read the relevant PC sections, then please provide a reference for either if your claims about 'on your person' or 'while in your vehicle'



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[ElDub1950]

The discussion is about a gun left in an unoccupied locked vehicle. Once you exit the car, you are no longer 'carrying' the gun so CCW PC & exemptions no longer apply. It doesn't matter if you're gone for 10 seconds to go to a bathroom or gone to vegas for 10 days, you are not "CCW"ing it.

As far as I can see there are no laws that cover leaving a loaded gun in a locked car, so there's nothing one can be charged with.

[71MUSTY]

I locking box bolted to the car floor is a great thing to have. Since I can't carry while at work, I use mine daily.

this

[Efishnsea]

If I leave my car to go into a restricted area, ie bar, Fed bldg, etc. My CCW gun goes into my gun safe cabled to the interior of my trunk. Since my permit is restricted for business use, I also unload the gun/remove the mag if I'm done working for the day. This make sense to me, though I may be over doing it.