Law Enforcement Influence on California Politics

[Kestryll]

So if it became legal to beat citizens then it makes it ok?

This is a stupid argument.

"Let's see what the most outlandish thing I can think of is, post that and try to make some BS comparison."


The argument that LEOs are evil or bad because they enforce bad laws is dumb to begin with.
LEOs do NOT make law or interpret law which is what that argument presumes to desire.

"he knows it's bad so he shouldn't enforce it!"
Fine, so you want each individual LEO to interpret the value and constitutionality of each law by their own perception.

Wait, you want that right up until an LEO's opinion or perception differs from yours, then you want to sue him for enforcing his view of the law not the law itself.

The legislature and the courts make and interpret the law not LEOs, unless you really want to see Judge Dredd play out on your street because that is what you're going to get if you leave interpretation of the law to LEOs.

[9M62]

So if it became legal to beat citizens then it makes it ok?

If it became legal to disarm citizens then it would be ok?

When will folks stop blindly following orders?

You know as well as I do that this is not even remotely the same thing. It's basically one step away from a wonderful Godwin.

Agreed. I am not advocating a LEO making up the laws as they go. It does happen though. Not all, but there is a percentage out there that figure it is best to let the DA sort it all out.

That's different than straight up making their own laws. That's enforcing a law by the LETTER OF THE LAW (which I don't agree with in most cases), rather than the spirit of which the law was written. In either case, it's not a cop just randomly deciding that something is legal or illegal.

Yes. They should also refuse to execute unethical orders, tactics or laws.

Agree.

Cops do precarious things. When they get caught it is called, "officer safety" or "good policing".

Must feel really good to go home to the kids and tell them how they must never lie. They must always tell the truth. Always fight for what is right.

Then throw all that out the door when they put on their urban combat, I mean blue uniform to go to work where they lie, bully, disarm and fudge their way through an arrest. Sure.. I bet 75% or more arrest are pretty clear cut without any shenanigans.

:huh:?

[9M62]

This is a stupid argument.

"Let's see what the most outlandish thing I can think of is, post that and try to make some BS comparison."


The argument that LEOs are evil or bad because they enforce bad laws is dumb to begin with.
LEOs do NOT make law or interpret law which is what that argument presumes to desire.

"he knows it's bad so he shouldn't enforce it!"
Fine, so you want each individual LEO to interpret the value and constitutionality of each law by their own perception.

Wait, you want that right up until an LEO's opinion or perception differs from yours, then you want to sue him for enforcing his view of the law not the law itself.

The legislature and the courts make and interpret the law not LEOs, unless you really want to see Judge Dredd play out on your street because that is what you're going to get if you leave interpretation of the law to LEOs.

You said it much more succinctly than I could. But that's what I was trying to get at.

Whether or not I, or the other OP, or you, or anyone supports LE -- the last thing you want is the front-line cop being the one to determine the constitutionality of a law.

[wildhawker]

CAguy, your head is in the clouds. Obviously you have never been been a victim. It's not about power. It's about keeping the wolf from preying on the sheep. You are very out of touch.

Unfortunately, the line between sheepdog and wolf is awfully blurry these days.

-Brandon

[barrage]

You said it much more succinctly than I could. But that's what I was trying to get at.

Whether or not I, or the other OP, or you, or anyone supports LE -- the last thing you want is the front-line cop being the one to determine the constitutionality of a law.

Why not? Seems like there'd be a lot fewer lives ruined and more general freedom all round if the standard front line cop would just take a second out of their day to respect the Constitution before mindlessly acting on behalf of their respective organizations under the convenient excuse of "just doing their job".

[9M62]

Why not? Seems like there'd be a lot fewer lives ruined and more general freedom all round if the standard front line cop would just take a second out of their day to respect the Constitution before mindlessly acting on behalf of their respective organizations under the convenient excuse of "just doing their job".

As long as you understand that peoples opinions vary. So while 9 out of 10 of them may let you walk around with your gun, another cop may decide that all drugs are bad and he's going to make it legal to search every home for them without a warrant or cause.

Point is, if you really want that type of scenario and power to be in the hands of a front-line cop, then you need to be understanding that their opinions and actions won't always be in line with your opinions and wants.

Personally, that's the last thing I'd ever want. I'd much prefer an imperfect system which has checks and balances to determine the constitutionality and legality of laws, and impartial objective front line folk to carry out the enforcement of said laws.

I'm not trying to sway your opinion on the matter though, honestly. If you think the other method would work better, that's fine. One day we may find out, or perhaps not.

[barrage]

As long as you understand that peoples opinions vary. So while 9 out of 10 of them may let you walk around with your gun, another cop may decide that all drugs are bad and he's going to make it legal to search every home for them without a warrant or cause.

Point is, if you really want that type of scenario and power to be in the hands of a front-line cop, then you need to be understanding that their opinions and actions won't always be in line with your opinions and wants.

Personally, that's the last thing I'd ever want. I'd much prefer an imperfect system which has checks and balances to determine the constitutionality and legality of laws, and impartial objective front line folk to carry out the enforcement of said laws.

Which would be a clear 4th Amendment violation. We already have laws that are supposed to keep that kind of thing in check.

Impartial, objective cops on the "front line" (nice militarized conditioning by the way) enforcing arbitrary and often un-Constitutional laws is a fast track to an authoritarian state that I'm not willing to get behind.

[9M62]

Which would be a clear 4th Amendment violation. We already have laws that are supposed to keep that kind of thing in check.

Impartial, objective cops on the "front line" (nice militarized conditioning by the way) enforcing arbitrary and often un-Constitutional laws is a fast track to an authoritarian state that I'm not willing to get behind.

You honestly see no issue with a standard beat-cop making a decision as to the constitutionality of a given law, or making his own laws based on what he or she deems to be constitutionally protected or not?

That's fine if you do. Personally, I see a huge problem with it and I would not want to live in a place that enforced its laws that way.

It's okay though, we can agree to disagree and enjoy our guns together. This is, after all, a gun owner forum!

Happy shootin'!

[wildhawker]

You honestly see no issue with a standard beat-cop making a decision as to the constitutionality of a given law, or making his own laws based on what he or she deems to be constitutionally protected or not?

That's fine if you do. Personally, I see a huge problem with it and I would not want to live in a place that enforced its laws that way.

It's okay though, we can agree to disagree and enjoy our guns together. This is, after all, a gun owner forum!

Happy shootin'!

Do all traffic stops result in citations, even when a law was unquestionably violated? Why or why not?

Discretion starts with the enforcers of our laws, not the prosecutors.

-Brandon

[9M62]

I don't know if they are or aren't. I'd assume not, as I've gotten let go before!

But to me there's a difference between interpretation of the constitution and discretion -- in some cases.

I don't want a beat cop having the power to decide the former. Just my opinion though.

[pacrat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat
Low info apathetic liberal Kommyfornia voters are easily duped, and tend to believe what ever they see coming out of liberal mouths on the idiot box.

jm2C

Nice! Glad to know what you think of anyone that votes in opposition of you.

They must all be stupid, right?

Not necessarily "stupid". Many quite intelligent people are still "apathetic, lazy, low info, and gullable enough to believe anything they are spoon fed dozens of times a day on BSM TV. As long as the lies are spouted by 2 guys in suits who 'CLAIM" to represent LE.

Prop 47 passing proves the truth of my words. More criminals on the streets. Directly equates to more crime in the streets. Believing otherwise is just delusional.

JM2c

[Ronin2]

Its amazing how this thread got off the topic of how prop 47 passed into a rant on LEO's. Contrary to popular belief here, I am not a LEO hater, although I am a frequent critic of unprofessional behavior and questionable judgment from what are now touted as "highly paid professionals".

The issue of LEO influence in CA politics is one of
1) money and benefits that are unsustainable in the long run.
2) liberal politicians hiding weak on crime votes and policies behind LEO endorsements at election time.
3) LEO's too lazy or apathetic to take direct role in their unions political activities outside the workplace to ensure their representatives actually promote the values most LEO's seem to lay claim to personally and give lip service to in this forum.

Prop 47 was opposed by PORAC, the largest and most representative LEO association in CA and every rank and file office I know personally. Prop 47 was promoted and endorsed by those in the LEO command community who have political aspirations.

[curtisfong]

Any law that requires selective enforcement to be "just" is not a just law to begin with. This includes most revenue enhancement traffic laws.

Also, I disagree strongly with the "Judge Dredd" slippery slope.

There is a big difference between a cop refusing to enforce a law that imposes prior restraint on a presumptively victimless act that happens to be a violation of a (questionably constitutional to begin with) law, and acting as judge, jury, and executioner on the street.

I trust cops to not blindly follow orders. Equating that with Judge Dredd is, imo, hyperbole.

The cautionary tale isn't that of a cop refusing to enforce the law, but a cop excessively and obsessively enforcing unjust laws, and enforcing things that aren't even illegal.

Also, the argument that CLEO opposing prop 47 makes them pro-gun is absolutely laughable.

[barrage]

Any law that requires selective enforcement to be "just" is not a just law to begin with. This includes most revenue enhancement traffic laws.

Also, I disagree strongly with the "Judge Dredd" slippery slope.

There is a big difference between a cop refusing to enforce a law that imposes prior restraint on a presumptively victimless act that happens to be a violation of a (questionably constitutional to begin with) law, and acting as judge, jury, and executioner on the street.

I trust cops to not blindly follow orders. Equating that with Judge Dredd is, imo, hyperbole.

The cautionary tale isn't that of a cop refusing to enforce the law, but a cop excessively and obsessively enforcing unjust laws, and enforcing things that aren't even illegal.

Also, the argument that CLEO opposing prop 47 makes them pro-gun is absolutely laughable.

Exactly my point in bold.

[SGTTOM]

Unfortunately, the line between sheepdog and wolf is awfully blurry these days.

-Brandon

No it really isn't. Just because a sheepdog has fangs doesn't mean he is a wolf. High drug addict breaking into your home and stealing your beloved gun and wife's jewels = wolf... Uniformed LEO arresting that individual for dope possession and putting him in jail before he steals from you = sheepdog.