Contrary to "SuperTool" allegations, I didn't "call DOJ" on any personl/vendor...

[robertkjjj]

It never ceases to amaze me, how many people on Calguns seem to believe that if we gunners would just be quiet, and behave ourselves, and never ask for anything new....that the anti-2nd folks in the CA State government would just magically stop writing and passing new bills.

Do some of you really believe that?

Do you really believe that no more new anti-gun laws will come, if all of us just stopped campaigning for more rights, and if all of us just stopped asking to be left alone, and if all of us just stopped asking to have the same rights as they do in most other states?

Take a step back in history, folks. Because, what is happening to us is not all that different from what happened in Nazi Germany. Step by step, group by group, the Nazis started naming "enemies" of the state. And, each time the Nazis went after another enemy, the other minorities hunkered down, hoping not to be next. But, sooner or later, the Nazis got around to THEM as well.

I propose to you, that the antis in CA are willing and able to take away all our gun rights, one by one, incrementally, in SPITE of ANYTHING we do. They don't require any actions by we law-abiding gunners to provoke them.

All they need is the headlines. All they need, is the next horrible crime.
And, that might not happen for 5 years. Or, it could happen today.

That is ALL they need. We see it over and over. All of us are just one new crazy-kook crime away from the new wave of Sacramento knee-jerk oppression.

Our opponents are opportunists of the worst kind. The bills they intend to pass some day are all pre-written, sitting in their desk drawers, just ready to be submitted when the next big crime occurs.

Has almost nothing to do with our behaviors. Has everything to do with unpredictable crimes, and how they, the statists, know how their liberal constituents--and the governor--will react to it.

~~~~~

[johnthomas]

AB808 wasn't just about Joe Blow-Building-80%ers-in-his-garage.

AB808 happened because of accumulation of...

• Ares' stupid PR drama;
  
• BATF etc. investigation dubious CNC houses (Sacto! Fresno!...) selling a variety of
  (often illegally-configured) guns to prohibited people.
  
  Esp with the content of recorded conversations.
  
  Clearly many were in the mfg trade by known law, and "pushing the big red button" was
  an artifice. Furthermore, they appear to have assembled full guns from receivers, and
  in a variety of prohibited categories. Probl. a buncha uncharged state violations too.

[I hate that term 80% anyway since there's no such thing.]

I wasn't go to say anything but, I've been on the forum for a while. You have been nothing but straight up on issues and an asset to the gun community. I'm 60, being called a snitch is to put a man's integrity in question. Some may think this is a non issue, but it is. I, like you do not take this lightly. If this magnet salesman is telling folks his product is legal in California and people are losing their 2A rights because of it, maybe a class action is in line for those involved. Thank you for the heads up. JT

[johnyreb]

Ya know, for a guy who calls himself "johnnyreb", I don't see even the slightest smidge of "rebel" in you.

Just stating the obvious.

~~~~~~~~

Lol

Classy

[IVC]

Using CNC shops to finish ARs was determined to be illegal federally...and yet people continued....

I'm not challenging *how* it happened, merely pointing out that the pattern of "nobody is doing something, somebody starts doing something, have anti gun legislators ban something, blame those who started doing something for not being able to do something" is an invalid circular argument.

If the moment you start doing something that something becomes unavailable, then that something was never really available in the first place except for the short period during which someone made a buck and someone else benefited from it.

Compare to SSE. If we didn't use it, Sacramento wouldn't have banned it. However, if we didn't use it, there would be no harm in banning it since we weren't using it in the first place. See the problem?

[johnyreb]

I'm not challenging *how* it happened, merely pointing out that the pattern of "nobody is doing something, somebody starts doing something, have anti gun legislators ban something, blame those who started doing something for not being able to do something" is an invalid circular argument.

If the moment you start doing something that something becomes unavailable, then that something was never really available in the first place except for the short period during which someone made a buck and someone else benefited from it.

Compare to SSE. If we didn't use it, Sacramento wouldn't have banned it. However, if we didn't use it, there would be no harm in banning it since we weren't using it in the first place. See the problem?

[bwiese]

Can you please cite some circumstances/cases? I've just never heard of any except some ancedotal ones, but never anything solid. And I don't mean a case with a felon using a bullet button on a ar-15 while having a stash of drugs. I'm just talking about a conviction of a person who was just shooting a legal ar15 and had used a bullet button w/mag magnet.

It is not rumor mill.

One Sacto lawyer affiliated w CGF has handled either cases to their end result or people that have been charged. Because of privacy I don't hear all details, though public records should be available. Not really worth my time to pull. These were only "AW from magnetic override".

People forget that shooting outside is, well, NOISY. If it's not a range, it can attract attention/complaints, investigation and examination of rifle.

Plus we've had various queries at CGF who has been approached to defend others with other case aspects, which wasn't possible.

One actual vendor at Cow Palace show was videoed last year 'demoing' a mag override on a complete BB'd AR rifle. [I have seen such felony actions repeatedly since 2009, though some smarter vendors instead demoed these on featureless guns (no legal issue as long as hicap not used), bare lowers, or "80%" lowers milled out for the mag catch.

After wrangling he plead out to felony AW violation, unknown fine and 6 months in lockup. I think timing-wise he may be out now - given nonviolent act and prison costs and prison/jail "realignment" I think he went to jail instead of prison - and with overcrowding + good time he might be out now.

I also recall Michel & Assoc. (formerly TMLLP) defended an arrestee for such a device back in 2008? 2009?ish timeframe. They issued their own warning memo which still may be searchable after their website change.
The individual was convicted, fortunately, of an AW possession wobbler (instead of mfg/transport). This means that - with lack of objection from a DA down the line - that his conviction can be 17(b) converted to a misdemeanor.

One lawyer estimates 70+% of CA Assault weapons violations - at least in the past - are due to 'domestic' situations - and not shooting outside or in transport (traffic stop). There are a variety of reasons LEOs can enter your home - exigencies like medical/fire, family members consenting, statements against interest, separate drama w/kids or unstable elderly, etc. This happened to an acquaintance a decade+ ago and fortunately the cops were cool enough to only seize AR10T and not charge [and they let him have scope, sling, ammo mags etc back.] The individual had moved back & forth to Oregon and was confused about registration (he thought 4473 paperwork + 10 day wait at dealer was 'registered'.)

[bwiese]

Compare to SSE. If we didn't use it, Sacramento wouldn't have banned it. However, if we didn't use it, there would be no harm in banning it since we weren't using it in the first place. See the problem?

SSE went very well even in volume, even involving AR & AK pistols, from 2008 on.

DOJ didn't like it but tolerated it.

The Sacto PD scandal is the thing that blew this up - "Omigod illegal gunz are being flipped". Initial thoughts were AWs, MGs and sharks with lasers on their heads. Instead it turned out it was blue vs stainless, but there was the 'flipping' aspect involved. Dickinson got wind of the whole Roster thing and wanted PR - just like Leland Yee did after years of OLLs when Ch5 found the magMagnet-style devices. [The BB stuff was certainly known to legislators before but I believe they talked to JB's DOJ BoF and were told of issues if things changed...]

[curtisfong]

The point is, any one thing can alert the legislature. You have no control over what they do... and assuming act A but not act B will prevent the legislature from screwing you over is silly. The legislature will always screw you over in the long run. At any given time they can pass whatever law they want, with no repercussions... even with Heller, Peruta, etc. It will be decades (if ever) before there are any effective restrictions on the legislature.

What you CAN do is not behave in risky behavior that is liable to get you a felony conviction and time with bubba... or support vendors that claim they stuff they sell won't get you said conviction and bubba time.

The Ares stuff and the PD flipping stuff is in the grey area. You can claim that if Ares hadn't acted like they did, or PDs weren't flipping non-rostered guns, the legislature would never have acted... but then again, you don't have much control over what others do. You can, however, protect yourself, and try to discourage risky behavior.

The OLL case is an outlier; in that *particular* case we have the legislature checkmated... they can't do anything w/o reopening registration. Something they want to avoid at all costs. If you are looking for a way to give the legislature the finger, that is your model. That requires game theory AND a good working knowledge of law. GLWT.

[Artema]

I agree with you 100%. I have always been pro-2A even before I owned guns. If I had not been stationed in California for 4 years I don't know if I'd have many firearms at all. I only have 8, but I've bought and sold bunches too. I seriously don't think I'd have gotten as into it if I was completely free to do so. Hell, I almost bought a S&W Governor for no reason just because I couldn't do it while in Cali.

I disagree with your logic, and here is why:
By your logic, the reason that the antis keep coming up with MORE new laws against us, is because we pro-2nd people keep "provoking" them to do it by finding new ways to have the kind of guns we want. You act as if we pro-2nd people are doing these creative workarounds in some kind of vacuum. You act as if we pro-2nd people go to all this trouble, expense, and what-not for no reason whatsoever.

I say, sir, you have it 180 degrees backwards.What is really happening is this sequence:
1. People in CA have certain types of rifles and pistols that are commonplace in most other states.
2. A gun-related crime gets committed that grabs the headlines.
3. In reaction to the crime, all the libs in Sacramento gear up and write bills that chip away at the RTKBA all around the edges. Magazine sizes, bullet buttons, AR features, wait times, you name it.
4. Some of the bills pass.
5. In reaction to the new bills, CA gun owners get pissed, because now they can't have some of the firearms and features that they can easily get in most other states.
6. Small companies step in, and create small inventions that help CA gun owners continue to have the old features they still want, but still remain within the letter of the law(or close to it )
7. CA gun owners buy the new inventions, like them, and word of mouth etc. increases sales. Soon, word of the invention being used reaches the antis.
8. The antis react in horror, like this: "Those a-hole gun people! How dare they! How dare they try to work around OUR new wonderful law! We'll show them!! We'll just write ANOTHER law!!!!"
9. And then they do.
10. And the circle of insanity continues.


Sir, it's not "pushing the envelope". Rather, it's a pretty darn logical reaction to being subjected to anti-2nd laws.

Now, a "normal" person would recognize that constantly repressing people would create these kind of normal desires for circumvention and workarounds. But then, we're not dealing with "normal" people'. We're dealing with statists. We're dealing with control freaks. We're dealing with liberals.

Just as a person who is wrongly convicted and locked up in a cage will CONSTANTLY look for a way to escape, so it is with the firearm owners in the great state of CA.


~~~~~~~~

[IVC]

Dickinson got wind of the whole Roster thing and wanted PR ...

It was just a matter of time even without the flipping.

The magazine rebuild kits were gone once they became mainstream enough for the legislators to notice (not to mention that I'd put some good money on majority being used illegally.) The legislators then tried the same with "closing the BB loophole," but Brown vetoed it (would've backfired on them too.)

The only point is that I don't blame, e.g., the FFL-s who do SSE for what is about to happen on 1/1/2015.

[IVC]

That's a pretty elaborate retort that clearly conveys your opinion...

[-hanko]

Any magnet vendor who demos his product slapping it on a featureless rifle or separated lower and mentions nothing how it's illegal to use on the vast majority of BB'd rifles in California is

A

****ing

Scumbag

As is anyone in California naive and/or stupid enough to use the magnet product on his weapon without researching the legalities.

No one is responsible for what you do, but you.

[five.five-six]

(he thought 4473 paperwork + 10 day wait at dealer was 'registered'.)

It is amazing just how common this misconception is.

[rootuser]

It never ceases to amaze me, how many people on Calguns seem to believe that if we gunners would just be quiet, and behave ourselves, and never ask for anything new....that the anti-2nd folks in the CA State government would just magically stop writing and passing new bills.

Do some of you really believe that?

Do you really believe that no more new anti-gun laws will come, if all of us just stopped campaigning for more rights, and if all of us just stopped asking to be left alone, and if all of us just stopped asking to have the same rights as they do in most other states?

Take a step back in history, folks. Because, what is happening to us is not all that different from what happened in Nazi Germany. Step by step, group by group, the Nazis started naming "enemies" of the state. And, each time the Nazis went after another enemy, the other minorities hunkered down, hoping not to be next. But, sooner or later, the Nazis got around to THEM as well.

I propose to you, that the antis in CA are willing and able to take away all our gun rights, one by one, incrementally, in SPITE of ANYTHING we do. They don't require any actions by we law-abiding gunners to provoke them.

All they need is the headlines. All they need, is the next horrible crime.
And, that might not happen for 5 years. Or, it could happen today.

That is ALL they need. We see it over and over. All of us are just one new crazy-kook crime away from the new wave of Sacramento knee-jerk oppression.

Our opponents are opportunists of the worst kind. The bills they intend to pass some day are all pre-written, sitting in their desk drawers, just ready to be submitted when the next big crime occurs.

Has almost nothing to do with our behaviors. Has everything to do with unpredictable crimes, and how they, the statists, know how their liberal constituents--and the governor--will react to it.

~~~~~

I tend to agree, that there are too many in this forum that do nothing. Don't vote, don't belong to the NRA, don't donate time and or money, etc etc so the anti-gun bills will just keep coming and coming. You are right. Us doing nothing at all won't help.

No one is suggesting "lay down". We are suggesting, it certainly helps to be able to fight if you are NOT a felon and wasting your resources fighting a felony over something completely stupid.

Vendors like this tool and Ares are predatory. They are motivated by GREED and a desire for your money. They are not altruistic. They are not trying to "better" the community. If they were so altruistic, there are many things they could be doing rather than getting busted and giving up their customer lists or claiming a heretofore upstanding member of our community called the DOJ without a shred of proof.

It is their right to sell this stuff, and I would not take that away from them, but you've got to realize what/who you are dealing with. Scum buckets of the Nth degree. A lot of gun dealers and FFLs make good livings without having to resort to tactics that put their clientele in jeopardy unknowingly. It is possible to have good clean gun businesses and thankfully the vast majority of the businesses in this arena are exactly that. There are a select few who are not.

So all in all I agree with you, but suggesting that this vendor acted like a pig-eyed sack of garbage doesn't mean roll over and say nothing. It means stand up and keep fighting, against those that want to violate our civil rights and those who spread lies against our own.

[johnyreb]

That's a pretty elaborate retort that clearly conveys your opinion...

Beats the hell out of 600 word worthless posts......