Contrary to "SuperTool" allegations, I didn't "call DOJ" on any personl/vendor...

[taperxz]

Here is my interpretation. The magnet devices, when in use, are attached to the gun, on which you use your finger to release the magazine. A "tool" is a device held in or attached to your hand with which you use to detach the magazine. Once a tool is incorporated as a part of the gun, whether a screw, a magnet, or a piece of bubble gum, it is now an integral part of the gun and no longer a "tool". Using some definitions, a standard magazine release could be considered a "tool" which we all know won't fly in court for one microsecond.

A tool is incorporated no matter what its qualities are if you use the tool. How does the tool become an "integral" part of something?

The next time i plug in a drill to a generator via cord i will have to remember to refer to my drill as a generator that makes holes (all of which are now integrated)

[Wiz-of-Awd]

A tool is incorporated no matter what its qualities are if you use the tool. How does the tool become an "integral" part of something?

The next time i plug in a drill to a generator via cord i will have to remember to refer to my drill as a generator that makes holes (all of which are now integrated)

It's OK taperxz, you may use your magmagnet with no further comments from me.

A.W.D.

[taperxz]

It's OK taperxz, you may use your magmagnet with no further comments from me.

A.W.D.

And you can use your rat.

[bwiese]

1. Is there a millisecond time span for which something isn't a felony and then becomes one
   (i.e., how long can it stick before it's not a legal non-AW?)
   No.
   
   
2. Dude has magnetic 'tool' that is in his CLP-oily fingers. 'Tool' slips out of his fingers and sticks
   magnetically. Now you have a new finger operable mag catch.
   A cop is watching from a distance. He can't tell how long that is before fingers recover, or if
   stiction actually happened.
   
   Will his word count over yours? You bet.
   
   
3. With advent of Nguyen case elevated threshold of 'intent' in a constructive-possession-ish fashion.
   It somewhat inverted, in a way, burden of proof, making one really have to testify in his own behalf
   aggressively to show intent to comply.
   There's the whole believability factor.
   
   
4. Assume an 'ordinary' tool - an Xcelite pocket Allen screwdriver that sticks deeply enough in the BB
   maglock device allowing it to stay there and not fall out.
   Will you get screwed? Yes. It's a semiautomatic centefire rifle that "as it stands" has capacity.
   

And one of the things about lack of 'constructive possession' concept - i.e., separated parts OK, and that the
"gun must be considered as it is at time of examination without prospective changes" is that in fact the gun
is being examined as it stands with an overridden compliance device and the mag can be detached.

The whole aura of overriding a compliance device also makes it A Big Shiny Red Thing given that there's already
the dislike of the BB maglock in the first place.

Note that the cases I've referred to have had only haphazard defending and have plead out. My understanding - remotely, albeit - is there are some folks that really really would have wanted to do vigorous max defense if they could (job vs felony)

[taperxz]

1. Is there a millisecond time span for which something isn't a felony and then becomes one
   (i.e., how long can it stick before it's not a legal non-AW?)
   No.
   
   
2. Dude has magnetic 'tool' that is in his CLP-oily fingers. 'Tool' slips out of his fingers and sticks
   magnetically. Now you have a new finger operable mag catch.
   A cop is watching from a distance. He can't tell how long that is before fingers recover, or if
   stiction actually happened.
   
   Will his word count over yours? You bet.
   
   
3. With advent of Nguyen case elevated threshold of 'intent' in a constructive-possession-ish fashion.
   It somewhat inverted, in a way, burden of proof, making one really have to testify in his own behalf
   aggressively to show intent to comply.
   There's the whole believability factor.
   
   
4. Assume an 'ordinary' tool - an Xcelite pocket Allen screwdriver that sticks deeply enough in the BB
   maglock device allowing it to stay there and not fall out.
   Will you get screwed? Yes. It's a semiautomatic centefire rifle that "as it stands" has capacity.
   

And one of the things about lack of 'constructive possession' concept - i.e., separated parts OK, and that the
"gun must be considered as it is at time of examination without prospective changes" is that in fact the gun
is being examined as it stands with an overridden compliance device and the mag can be detached.

The whole aura of overriding a compliance device also makes it A Big Shiny Red Thing given that there's already
the dislike of the BB maglock in the first place.

Note that the cases I've referred to have had only haphazard defending and have plead out. My understanding - remotely, albeit - is there are some folks that really really would have wanted to do vigorous max defense if they could (job vs felony)

I agree with the potential problems it would create a person for using the device.

However, getting the courts to agree with the fact that it is a tool would also moot the "BB required" law when evil features exist.

I'm aware its a thin limb but it would be nice to fast track not needing a BB in this state.

[spddrcr]

Tincon & Wiz of AWD,

Let's clarify my 'over the top' situation involved me having a "frank & ernest" discussion around 4-5 years
ago with a vendor of a magnetic BB maglock override devices. (Can't remember which stooped sh*t I was
dealing with.)

Certain words impolite in Sunday school were used for emphasis. I was not yelling but my size + voice projects m
ay have gotten small attention after aperiod of time.

As I recall, some dude with a baby in a stroller came up & was standing behind me - didn't hear him come up. He
got all bent outta shape and posted something on CG later about a 'madman' or whatever. Hey, he injected
himself into the scene - don't complain.

Sorry, if you don't want your kid to learn about adult topics, keep them away from adult areas. Don't kidproof the
world, worldproof the kid. [And don't move next to an airport or gun range and then complain about the noise!]
Strollers block gunshow aisles anyway.


[ PTerell - why do I and many others here want to 'get along with' those selling products likely to easily entangle the
uninformed? Why do we want these people in our ranks? Pray tell me how we are not harmed politically by new people
getting poss. lifetime firearms prohibitions?

A huge number of people have been busted in recent year or so for AW violations based on magnetic maglock overrides.
And why should I have to put with being alleged to "call in the DOJ" - when it's really funny, they're there anyway
regardless of me, ATF, Joe Blow or anyone else - it's their meal ticket.]

just for the record and to clarify exactly what happened I will chime in on this.
first and foremost i don't hold any ill will toward bill or the work he has done on and for calguns. he does important work for all CA gunowners and is passionate about what he does.
the incident being talked about here was my son and i at i believe the cowpalace gunshow years ago. I was buying froglube from a vendor who at the time was the only distributor of the stuff at the show. the guy also happened to be selling mag magnets or whatever they were being called at the time. My son and i had been at the table for about 5 minutes before bill ever showed up discussing the frog lube. bill showed up and the f bombs started flying. it wasn't due to size or anything else that I was mad, it was because there was a grown human being actually swearing and arguing with somebody that i was in the process of buying lube from and the fact that my young son learned some colorful language that day and a lesson on how not to act in public no matter what your stance on an issue is.

I could have taken the issue to PM's with higher up's on cal guns but chose to make a post about it instead, which in turn created a ****storm in the actual thread. the only reason i knew it was somebody from calguns was due to the shirt he was wearing with the CGF logo.
what i took away from the situation is that yes bill is passionate about what he does, that mob mentality actually did exist on the forum here and that there were a lot of keyboard warrior newbs who had been members here for a quarter of the time or less then myself who believed i had made the whole thing up yet i had PM's from others that saw it as well that i never disclosed.

so bill I let this go long ago, only to happen upon this thread today in which you have forgotten what actually transpired and once again claimed it was my fault for bringing a child into an adult area which is far from the truth.
Fact's:
my son was not in a stroller and was old enough to know the word being used were not something rational people use in public.
I was there first by at least 5 minutes
you did use language that was not appropriate at the time and you were using a voice many would consider yelling.

After that thread i stepped away from calguns for quite awhile. seeing this come back up with your distorted view is laughable at this point because all i asked for was an apology in the original thread (which never came) and instead was berated by a bunch of calgunners that i had respect for at one time.
I am sure the same will happen with this thread, but then again there is a reason like others have said that the Anti's do better then us when it comes to unity and outreach for their cause.

[cbright1]

it goes to show you that human beings can be very creative when you attempt to take away their 2a rights. The bullet button was created to relieve the lawmakers of the worry that someone can change magazines quickly and easily. Once it was created, although it still fulfilled lawmakers goals, it was not good enough. after that, all kinds of devices that make using the BB easier have come out; spike with velcro on finger, pointy thing on next mag, glove with pointy thing, sling with pointy thing. All of which allows for faster replacement of a magazine. The magnet is just another one of those, except it is located where it cannot be located. Again, it just amazes me how the human mind continues to try to figure out a way around a problem.

[cbright1]

I agree with the potential problems it would create a person for using the device.

However, getting the courts to agree with the fact that it is a tool would also moot the "BB required" law when evil features exist.

I'm aware its a thin limb but it would be nice to fast track not needing a BB in this state.

exactly, not my fault your bullet button law is stupid. if there can be work arounds, there is going to be.

[JaredKaragen]

What a nightmare of a thread...

I'm wondering how the magnet is not considered a tool by definition.

It may be touching the bb, but isn't "fixed" as it is easily removed without the use of a tool, and a heavy shake can dislodge it.

If its considered an "override", wouldn't a bullet fall under that "definition"?

I agree to stay away from them, best safe than a felon.

As far as letter of the law, it doesn't circomvent the bb, its a tool to be used on it.


Cali laws suck in this regard.

[Mitch]

it goes to show you that human beings can be very creative when you attempt to take away their 2a rights. The bullet button was created to relieve the lawmakers of the worry that someone can change magazines quickly and easily.

No; once again it was devised to render a centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine into a centerfire rifle without a detachable magazine. No one in the Legislature or anywhere else ever made any reference to changing magazines quickly and easily, or not.

All is explained here.

exactly, not my fault your bullet button law is stupid. if there can be work arounds, there is going to be.

There is no "bullet button law."

[dreyna14]

A tool is incorporated no matter what its qualities are if you use the tool. How does the tool become an "integral" part of something?

The next time i plug in a drill to a generator via cord i will have to remember to refer to my drill as a generator that makes holes (all of which are now integrated)

Now you're being a bit ridiculous. The drill bit, being attached to the drill, is now an integral part of the drill. If I were to hand a person an AR with a simple bullet button, in order for them to remove the magazine, I would also have to hand them a tool to use to remove it. If I hand someone an AR with a magnet installed in the bullet button, they only need to use their finger. Done, off to jail.

And, yes, the drill is now a generator since back emf will result from it's use reducing the overall current necessary for operation.

[taperxz]

Now you're being a bit ridiculous. The drill bit, being attached to the drill, is now an integral part of the drill. If I were to hand a person an AR with a simple bullet button, in order for them to remove the magazine, I would also have to hand them a tool to use to remove it. If I hand someone an AR with a magnet installed in the bullet button, they only need to use their finger. Done, off to jail.

And, yes, the drill is now a generator since back emf will result from it's use reducing the overall current necessary for operation.

You call me ridiculous?

A drill bit is an accessory to the tool. Even it requires a chuck in order to accept it. And no, the drill does not become a generator of electricity for distribution.

[curtisfong]

You call me ridiculous?

A drill bit is an accessory to the tool. Even it requires a chuck in order to accept it. And no, the drill does not become a generator of electricity for distribution.

You mean the motor that spins the drill bit is the accessory.

The bit is the tool doing the actual work.

The point is, you can argue anything, and depending on the judge/jury, you can get any result, no matter how insane.

That is the beauty of the court system.

You know, the same system that determined that a "firearm" is the serialized part, but all other parts are parts.

What a joke our legal system is.

[bwiese]

Spddrcr...

Your recollection may or may not be correct; I just recall some whining after these 4 years. Whatever.

I was there first by at least 5 minutes
you did use language that was not appropriate at the time

Perhaps. I didn't notice you.

Your judgment about the language. I'd say if you don't wanna hear cussing etc stay out of gunshows,
machineshops, football games, car repair places and police stations.

I'm happy enough with it and continue to use it.

About a week ago at Original Joe's I sat down at the counter, high-fived the waiter and said, "Gimme my
TBone mother***ker." in my usual tone of voice.

It was perfectly accepted by the waiter and those sitting around me.

and you were using a voice many would consider yelling.

Elevated, not yelling. Would you like to hear me yell?

all i asked for was an apology in the original thread (which never came)

And you'll never get it. I don't apologize to the butthurt.

And sometimes in life it's time to turn the knob beyond 11.

BTW Worldproof your kid, don't kidproof the world.

[taperxz]

You mean the motor that spins the drill bit is the accessory.

The bit is the tool doing the actual work.

The point is, you can argue anything, and depending on the judge/jury, you can get any result, no matter how insane.

That is the beauty of the court system.

You know, the same system that determined that a "firearm" is the serialized part, but all other parts are parts.

What a joke our legal system is.

I'll buy that logic.