CRPA vs. NRA comparison: Could a 4Mil+ member mega-org be easier to have a voice in?

[wash]

I think it's something different, he has a problem with something CGF is or isn't doing, so he attacks everything CGF or a CGF board member does.

[moleculo]

I think it's something different, he has a problem with something CGF is or isn't doing, so he attacks everything CGF or a CGF board member does.

I don't attack everything CGF does, not even close. I haven't really even attacked anything CGF has done. I have asked questions about how decisions are made, how money is used, and how the organization operates.

I would like to see some transparency in how donations are used. I don't believe that it is a smart decision to donate to charitable organizations that hide behind a "give money, but don't ask questions" cloak of secrecy. I believe that any organization fighting for our 2A rights should produce a balanced scorecard of their activities to help us all understand which organization to get behind. I also believe that CGF sometimes/regularly shoots itself in the foot in the PR department with those who would otherwise be their supporters because of some of the messages that are delivered on CGN. They will never hear from those who are disappointed with the message because most will just click onto the next thread or website without wasting any energy because they know it will only end with public denigration of their opinion.

Gray, I'm disappointed that instead of thinking about the Jim Jones metaphor I used, you simply dismissed it as me being an @$s. How many posts are there in this section about people proclaiming to drink the CGF kool-aid? It's so common, that I figured it was an easy metaphor! How are we, the average CA to be assured that the money we donate to CGF isn't being used on crap litigation that will ultimately end up being the kool-aid money that sinks all of our 2A rights in CA? Right now, we have no such assurances. I see no balanced scorecard of wins and losses that fairly represents the CGF story. I hope that I am wrong and would really like for CGF to be the organization that I get behind for 2A wins in CA, but it is difficult to do. CGF doesn't even produce a annual report showing funds taken in and a schedule of what the money was used for! On the surface, it appears that CGF wants to represent that they are a big-time, powerful 2A lobby with significant legal prowess, except that they appear to be as financially accountable as the local high school cheerleader squad that does car washes and bake sales to raise funds. Forgive me, but I have too many close friends and have actual family that were bamboozled by other non-profits that operated similarly. Fortunately I also know what a respectable, well run charity looks like, as well.

If you view my observations as an attack on CGF, then you're not thinking hard enough about what I am saying. All of the issues that I am raising questions about can EASILY be remedied, and could ultimately help provide more confidence in both CGF as an organization and as means to gain back our 2A rights in CA. I don't personally know ANYONE that is a gunny who has donated to CGF (I know quite a few gunnies!) and a lot of that has to do with the reasons I've outlined.

I think I've said entirely enough on this topic. Those who want to think about this point of view will, and those who want to drink kool-aid will, as well.

[Gray Peterson]

I don't attack everything CGF does, not even close. I haven't really even attacked anything CGF has done. I have asked questions about how decisions are made, how money is used, and how the organization operates.

I would like to see some transparency in how donations are used. I don't believe that it is a smart decision to donate to charitable organizations that hide behind a "give money, but don't ask questions" cloak of secrecy. I believe that any organization fighting for our 2A rights should produce a balanced scorecard of their activities to help us all understand which organization to get behind.

CGF Scorecard

1. Defended Bright Spot Pawn from AW charges: http://bit.ly/7FC20j
   
2. Defended John Contos from AW charges: http://bit.ly/4wQDpv
   
3. Defended UOC-ing Marine charged in Oceanside: http://bit.ly/8o6nE5
   
4. Defended large-capacity magazine charge.
   
5. Gutted DC's adoption of California's Handgun Roster: http://bit.ly/8JhGZa
   
6. Defended Don Anderson against AW charges: http://bit.ly/6L0Ykb
   
7. Defended legal AR (Orange County Sheriff Department AR seizure): http://bit.ly/7xHFgT
   
8. Defended charges of illegal carry, established shotgun is not concealable upon the person: http://bit.ly/5GZjav
   
9. Assisted Theseus fundraising: http://bit.ly/5IAWq4
   
10. Assisted LA Airport AW case fundraising: http://bit.ly/6erDF9
    
11. Filed an Amicus in McDonald supporting P or I Incorporation: http://bit.ly/4ZFNJX
    
12. Assisted in defeating San Mateo County LCAV ordinances: http://bit.ly/5Ourca
    
13. Funded UOC Lawsuit vs. San Diego: http://bit.ly/byxMDw
    
14. Nordyke amicus brief, shows gun show ban has no crime effect: http://bit.ly/bNnRkJ
    
15. SAF/CGF gun ads negate SF MTA anti-gun policy: http://bit.ly/8XNCFc

CGF Projects Underway:

1. http://bit.ly/972uyl
   
2. Ventura - Governments must disclose public records: CGF v. County of Ventura
   
3. Min. Continuing Legal Education (MCLE) program for firearms issues: http://bit.ly/buY43R
   
4. Challenged DOJ rulemaking on DROS fees, demanded audit: http://bit.ly/cX6rvA

California License to Carry Compliance and Education Program related:

1. Changed Ventura County's LTC process policy to be fully compliant with state law.
   
2. Converted Sacramento to a "self defense" good cause policy (NOT shall-issue, but, that's what Richards is now for).
   
3. Solano County reduced their illegal LTC fees down to state standard, and refunded money to LTC applications that they stole from for years.
   
4. Lawsuits filed against Merced County (Rossow v. Pazin) and Los Angeles County (Lu v. Baca) for law violative LTC policies.

More:

Silvester v. Harris: Waiting period challenge. Still in district court.
CGF v. San Mateo County: Challenge on parks ban per preemption. Lost in Superior Court, appealing in 1DCA of the California Court of Appeals.


and before you start with the "It hasn't been updated", crap, CGF moving to a new website platform which will allow easier updating of the site (to the person who's doing the designing, I know you're reading this, thank you so much!).

I also believe that CGF sometimes/regularly shoots itself in the foot in the PR department with those who would otherwise be their supporters because of some of the messages that are delivered on CGN. They will never hear from those who are disappointed with the message because most will just click onto the next thread or website without wasting any energy because they know it will only end with public denigration of their opinion.

Please. You're not being denigrated because of your opinion. You're being denigrated because you're implying the people who spent numerous years and tremendous amounts of their own time and money to the effort that they are doing something shady. Would YOU react well to it?

Gray, I'm disappointed that instead of thinking about the Jim Jones metaphor I used, you simply dismissed it as me being an @$s. How many posts are there in this section about people proclaiming to drink the CGF kool-aid? It's so common, that I figured it was an easy metaphor!

Sorry, but two wrongs don't make right here. I don't think it's a good idea to make jokes on a written form on a forum located in a state where the Jones Cult originated from, who have family members who died in Guyana. Call it a pet peeve.

How are we, the average CA to be assured that the money we donate to CGF isn't being used on crap litigation that will ultimately end up being the kool-aid money that sinks all of our 2A rights in CA? Right now, we have no such assurances. I see no balanced scorecard of wins and losses that fairly represents the CGF story. I hope that I am wrong and would really like for CGF to be the organization that I get behind for 2A wins in CA, but it is difficult to do.

A list of active cases, though updates are waiting for a move to a new platform:

Litigation Nationwide

CGF doesn't even produce a annual report showing funds taken in and a schedule of what the money was used for!

Ask Second Amendment Foundation for the same information. They'll tell you to pound sand for releasing a detailed report, too. Considering they were the ones who funded the McDonald case, that's pretty good company to be in compared to a guy who does nothing but continually harangue volunteers for information beyond what is legally required.

SAF has overhead in that they have permanent staff (though because of their national profile, this is understandable), so it is intended to go in perpetuity. CGF does not, and unless you want anywhere from 40K to 80K of the annual donations received by CGF to pay a full time staff director, rather than going to the lawyers to pay their sustenance fees for keeping gun owners like you out of jail when a cop screws up, or even if you screw up by forgetting to unload that magazine in your trunk.

On the surface, it appears that CGF wants to represent that they are a big-time, powerful 2A lobby

CGF is not a lobbying organization. A limited amount of lobbying is allowed to CGF per the IRS 501(c)(3) tax code, and all of that limited amount of lobbying is being used towards stopping SB249 from becoming law. CGF and Cal-FFL are working on that issue together. The lobbyists in Sacramento is Ed Worley (of the NRA-ILA) and Tom Pedersen (of the CRPA), not of CGF.

with significant legal prowess

Alan Gura. 'nuff said.

except that they appear to be as financially accountable as the local high school cheerleader squad that does car washes and bake sales to raise funds. Forgive me, but I have too many close friends and have actual family that were bamboozled by other non-profits that operated similarly. Fortunately I also know what a respectable, well run charity looks like, as well.

CGF was never intended to be a permanent entity in the same vane as SAF.

Do you have any actual evidence of CGF bamboozling people, or is this similar to "Unless you release the information, we'll consider you guilty of what we're accusing you of" things? Last I checked, CGF isn't running for the US Presidency.

Put up or shut up.

If you view my observations as an attack on CGF, then you're not thinking hard enough about what I am saying. All of the issues that I am raising questions about can EASILY be remedied, and could ultimately help provide more confidence in both CGF as an organization and as means to gain back our 2A rights in CA. I don't personally know ANYONE that is a gunny who has donated to CGF (I know quite a few gunnies!) and a lot of that has to do with the reasons I've outlined.

and just remember, we'll still help you if the cops misidentify your gun as an AW because they can't tell the difference between a muzzle brake and a flash suppressor.

What we do was already identified and well so. If the scorecard above isn't enough, then I really don't know what to say to that.

Just remember when you get your carry license without fear of it being revoked because the sheriff doesn't like you for some reason, it'll be because CGF board, core volunteer group, among others made it happen, the same people you are implying are engaging in shady practices.

[tbhracing]

Tagged.

[Gray Peterson]

You guys are just feeding a troll. moleculo is just an anonymous mouthpiece for those on the CRPA board who would deny you a voice in how our membership organization is run. He is attempting to do the bidding of his masters by detailing every thread that discusses the inadequacies of the current CRPA structure.

Now, it is possible that I am wrong but to believe that one would have to think that Moleculo is actually really really stupid as he has been incapable of understanding things like the differences between the way CRPA and CGF are organized.

QFT

[bwiese]

1. Legal entities are best structured where lawyers/small working board drive the strategy, and a variety of aspects are kept under the cuff.

People can donate whether or not they want to. We generally try to say or hint where we're going.

We hope folks want to donate - I think there's been enough examples of what we're doing, what we're trying to do, and the fact that CGF expense-to-output ratio is very low.

Note that like CGF, CRPA Foundation and NRA-ILA/CRDF are separate for their major organizations.


2. A general gunrights organization, by contrast is supposed to be 'representative'. There's monies to be disbursed, there's choices of efforts to focus upon, there's efficiences (or lack thereof) that need monitoring, output needing monitoring, etc.

NRA has that formal structure - and it worked when, in 1977, it righted itself and ejected an old guard in order to start becoming a far more politically active group riding up the learning curve.

CRPA - outside of its fine lobbyist who I will back 100% and walk thru fire for - just doesn't "get" politics and suffers from some of its past history.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I don't attack everything CGF does, not even close. I haven't really even attacked anything CGF has done. I have asked questions about how decisions are made, how money is used, and how the organization operates.

I notice you used the past tense here. That might be accurate.

CGF doesn't even produce a annual report showing funds taken in and a schedule of what the money was used for! On the surface, it appears that CGF wants to represent that they are a big-time, powerful 2A lobby with significant legal prowess, except that they appear to be as financially accountable as the local high school cheerleader squad that does car washes and bake sales to raise funds. Forgive me, but I have too many close friends and have actual family that were bamboozled by other non-profits that operated similarly. Fortunately I also know what a respectable, well run charity looks like, as well.

We are financially as accountable as a local high school cheerleader squad? You have family that have been bamboozled by other non-profits that operated similarly? You know what a respectable, well run charity looks like?

Then you say this.

If you view my observations as an attack on CGF, then you're not thinking hard enough about what I am saying.

Or your words write for themselves. Yeah we do not have to think hard when we can clearly see you are attacking CGF. Which is fine. Haters are always going to hate, especially when we are winning.

To those of you out there that for some reason think moleculo has valid points and don't understand the difference between CGF and the NRA/CRPA, I assure you your donations are not being wasted. Your money is being used directly for the fight for your gun rights here in California. Thank you to Gray Peterson for showing some evidence of that fight and our success.

For those of you who see moleculo's questions as obtuse and his failure to understand the issues at hand, we thank you for your continued support. A man's honor and integrity should be worth something. I give you my word CGF is being responsible with their donations and we use that money to defend the rights of Californians. If there ever comes a time when that money is being wasted or something shady starts happening, I will let you know.

My honor and integrity are definitely worth more than the nothing I get paid for being a CGF board member.

There comes a certain amount of faith involved that the gun owners who sit on the board of CGF are going to do what is right for not only themselves, but all of their fellow gun owners. If you doubt our honesty and integrity or better yet our results, then please find some other worthy gun rights organization to donate to. I see many of you know what we do and you continue to help us make the good fight. And that I appreciate and thank you for it.

We might not be able to always win in the legislature, but CGF is not a lobbying organization. And that is why we have been winning in the courts and will continue to win.

[Scarecrow Repair]

How are we, the average CA to be assured that the money we donate to CGF isn't being used on crap litigation that will ultimately end up being the kool-aid money that sinks all of our 2A rights in CA? Right now, we have no such assurances.

I send CGF money every month and am quite satisfied. Your implication is that I am too stupid to know what to do with my own money and need you to look after my fiscal well-being. Control freak statist much?

I would not even thank you were you to butt out of my business, since that is the minimum I expect of everyone else.