Civilians can't see or touch off-list weapons?

[Digital_Boy]

If you look at the law carefully they were legally correct in saying it would be illegal to even let you hold the firearm.

If you noticed the words "gives" and "lend" it should be quite obvious. The act of handing you the firearm to look at is the act of giving and letting you hold it for a time period is the act of lending the firearm to you on a temp basis.

Sounds crazy but that is how the law is .... crazy.

No, give/lend means that the firearm would leave the vicinity of the owner's immediate supervision. Just like someone can let you fire a gun at the range, but not take it home with you temporarily. Simply examining the gun at the counter does not meet the legal definition of loaning, as the owner is always in the immediate vicinity.

As has already been noted, it's more FUD/store policy to not let an ineligible buyer handle the guns to prevent them being dropped or scratched, thus negatively affecting their sale value to eligible buyers.

[curtisfong]

If you look at the law carefully they were legally correct in saying it would be illegal to even let you hold the firearm.

If you noticed the words "gives" and "lend" it should be quite obvious. The act of handing you the firearm to look at is the act of giving and letting you hold it for a time period is the act of lending the firearm to you on a temp basis.

Sounds crazy but that is how the law is .... crazy.

IANAL but I believe "lend" is a bit more than just handing it over to somebody while you are there.

Otherwise, I couldn't let my buddy hold any of my off roster handguns at the range.

[Digital_Boy]

What's "turnkey" SSE?

Turnkey = FFL does the legwork and procures SSE barrels and single shot magazines appropriate to the handgun in question and installs them before the gun ever goes on display, and has policies in place to buy back the barrel/sled from the buyer once they return the pistol to stock configuration.

[Digital_Boy]

IANAL but I believe "lend" is a bit more than just handing it over to somebody while you are there.

Otherwise, I couldn't let my buddy hold any of my off roster handguns at the range.

I would believe that since you are perfectly fine selling a non-roster pistol to any non-prohibited person, you could also loan them temporarily, within the guidelines established in the CA PC just the same as any other handgun. The only gotcha is for licensed dealers selling non-roster guns to non-exempt persons.

[Gunsmith Dan]

Whhile the "lend" portion of the law can be twisted a bit here and there the act of giving can not.

It does not matter if you are standing right next to the guy or even surgically attached to them. The act of allowing them to hold the firearm is "giving" it to them. I was also somewhat wondering about the law when I started my business and consulted a attorney who advised what I have told you guys. So as long as you allowed the person to hold the firearm you gave it to them, doesn't matter if it was in your hand or sitting on a coffee table on the otherside of the room. The only way you would not get hit would be if the person took it without permission.

Will you get caught .... most likely not ... but is it worth the risk??? For a business owner the answer would be in most cases no ... that is if they plan to stay in business for a long time.

[Ron-Solo]

LEO's are civilians unless they also happen to be in the military.

Depends on what dictionary you refer to, so can we just leave these little snippets out of what is a reasonable discussion?

[choprzrul]

Depends on what dictionary you refer to, so can we just leave these little snippets out of what is a reasonable discussion?

Dictionaries aside, there are civilians and there are non-civilians. If you are a non-civilian enforcing laws in this country, there may be a problem.

From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment

.

[Ron-Solo]

Dictionaries aside, there are civilians and there are non-civilians. If you are a non-civilian enforcing laws in this country, there may be a problem.

Quote:
From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment



.

Bit of a stretch don't you think? Now, can we please get back on topic?


In my opinion, a salesperson handing someone a gun in a store is neither giving nor lending, but he might AR a problems with the offering an off roster handgun to an inelligible person, but that's a reach too.

Most likely, a store policy to prevent needless handling and keep merchandise in new condition.

[taperxz]

Regardless of law interpretations. The firearm belongs to the FFL. If he doesn't want you to touch it, it's their prerogative.

[JackRydden224]

I want to clarify that I was in no way criticizing Ammo Bros or a particular employee. I've done plenty of business with Ammo Bros and I think they are an outstanding business. I was trying to get a clear answer on the CA law. If it is the CA law, not the store policy, that prevents a shop from showing me a XDm then I would not ask any other shop to do it.

While I'm at it, this law would implicate private owner as well as it points to any person, not limited to business establishments. Therefore if an off roster gun is considered unsafe then anyone of us who shows another individual an off-list weapon would violate the law. At the end, just what is CA's definition of an unsafe handgun???


32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

Regardless of law interpretations. The firearm belongs to the FFL. If he doesn't want you to touch it, it's their prerogative.

Ammo Bros or any other shop, gun related or not, has the right to deny service to anyone. I have no problem with the fact that I was not able to fondle the gun and but that's not what I'm trying to get at here. If I am really determined to see it then I can contact a fellow Calgunner for it or drive to Nevada.

[ke6guj]

While I'm at it, this law would implicate private owner as well as it points to any person, not limited to business establishments. Therefore if an off roster gun is considered unsafe then anyone of us who shows another individual an off-list weapon would violate the law. At the end, just what is CA's definition of an unsafe handgun???


32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
.

nope, there is an exemption for a private individual to sell an unsafe handgun without violating the law.


32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter
5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply
with Section 27545.

[DannyInSoCal]

Really?

You're whining because someone wouldnt let you handle a sidearm you cant buy?

News flash - Crap happens...

[mrdd]

The guns are considered "unsafe" until they are tested. Currently I believe a manufacturer has to provide 10 working samples of each firearm model they want to sell, pay $5000 to the State approved Labs for EACH firearm they submit and do it all over every year.

Just some corrections:

3 samples of each model required at initial application only

$200 Initial application and per year renewal per model

[JackRydden224]

nope, there is an exemption for a private individual to sell an unsafe handgun without violating the law.


32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter
5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply
with Section 27545.

Thank you sir for clarifying my question. You've been very helpful unlike a certain someone....

Really?

You're whining because someone wouldnt let you handle a sidearm you cant buy?

News flash - Crap happens...

No, I'm not really whining.

News flash - Danny your reading comprehension sucks.

I made it clear that I was trying get an understanding of the law which many other members helped out. None of them thought I was whining. I wonder what made you think that I was whining

[mrdd]

32000. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.


that's the law regarding unsafe handguns. There is an exemption for LE sales. Does the act of pulling the handgun out of the case to let you fondle it violate 32000?

No, there is an exemption available:

PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5
(commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the
following:
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from
the provisions of Section 27545 pursuant to any applicable exemption
contained in Article 2 (commencing with Section 27600) or Article 6
(commencing with Section 27850) of Chapter 4 of Division 6, if the
sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that
applicable exemption to Section 27545.

This allows you to lend an "unsafe" handgun to another person personally known to you for 30 days (PC 27880), or to lend it to anyone for up to 3 days as long as you remain in their presence the entire time (PC 27885).