I'm sure it's "here we go again time"...handloads and self defense

[SilverTauron]

It seems as though there have been a few cases where it has made a difference using handloads, or where the DA tried to make it an issue. But it also seems like those very few cases have been spread out over several decades. So the question is; is there a real threat of it being used against you? It doesn't seem like there is.

Careful. This line of thinking is deceptive, because we are only aware of cases which are known to expert witnesses plugged into the 2A "network" , so to speak. There are probably dozens of cases where these arguments came up and for lack of anyone involved being a member of a 2A forum or RKBA legal club, they never saw the light of documented day.

Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, the SAF,and other pro 2A legal experts comprise but a FRACTION of the entire legal establishment. If they've seen these issues come up in their letter box view of the court system, that's enough reason to suspect these arguments can come up far more often behind closed doors. Not everyone who uses a firearm in self defense winds up on the news or posts about their experiences online.

[Glock22Fan]

There's a potential downside, however small, to using handloads, or even using factory 10mm, .44Mag, S&W .500 etc.

The upside is . . .

Oh, wait a minute, there is no upside. Not one that's worth taking the risk for.

I'll stick with my production hollowpoints (outside Mass) (in either .40 or .45ACP) and leave you all to weigh up what you want to do.

[NotEnufGarage]

Can you show me where using handloads have caused a similar or worse problem?

The point of my position is not that it has been used against anyone in the past, it's that I don't want to have it used against me should the situation arise.

The less "ammunition" you give the DA or plaintiffs attorney, the less likely they'll be able to build a case against you. It's about mitigating risk, real or perceived. If that point is lost on anyone, I wish you the best of luck in paying your defense attorney and retaining your property and freedom in the event you do have to use you HD weapon with handloads in it.

Nobody sued a major corporation for burning themselves with hot coffee before the McDonalds incident. That case speaks volumes about some of the stupidity that occurs in our judicial system. Are you willing to bet it all on 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty?

[Glock22Fan]

The point of my position is not that it has been used against anyone in the past, it's that I don't want to have it used against me should the situation arise.

The less "ammunition" you give the DA or plaintiffs attorney, the less likely they'll be able to build a case against you. It's about mitigating risk, real or perceived. If that point is lost on anyone, I wish you the best of luck in paying your defense attorney and retaining your property and freedom in the event you do have to use you HD weapon with handloads in it.

Nobody sued a major corporation for burning themselves with hot coffee before the McDonalds incident. That case speaks volumes about some of the stupidity that occurs in our judicial system. Are you willing to bet it all on 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty?

Exactly. The upside, if there is one, is not worth it.

[rugershooter]

Careful. This line of thinking is deceptive, because we are only aware of cases which are known to expert witnesses plugged into the 2A "network" , so to speak. There are probably dozens of cases where these arguments came up and for lack of anyone involved being a member of a 2A forum or RKBA legal club, they never saw the light of documented day.

Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, the SAF,and other pro 2A legal experts comprise but a FRACTION of the entire legal establishment. If they've seen these issues come up in their letter box view of the court system, that's enough reason to suspect these arguments can come up far more often behind closed doors. Not everyone who uses a firearm in self defense winds up on the news or posts about their experiences online.

That's true. I didn't think of it like that. My point was basically that if it's as much of a risk as some people (like Ayoob) think, one would think that there is more evidence to show it. I agree that it does introduce a variable into the courtroom-which isn't desirable- and I probably wouldn't use handloads unless I had to. But it just doesn't seem like there's enough evidence to show that using handloads for SD is any more risky than using anything that could be perceived or portrayed as evil, such as expanding bullets, OLLs, military weapons, etc.

[boxcab]

Cost.

I reload because I shoot so much that ammo costs are a real issue. I use my reloads for HD because I know they work and are reliable in my gun. If you only "refresh" the ammo in your self defense gun once a year, how do you know the reliability of the gun/ammo?

My sights are set for my handloads. Switching back and forth with hand loads and factory ammo is unwise. Will the factory ammo (that you rarely shoot through your gun) function when needed in a crisis? It is very narrow sighted to assume everyone can afford the best factory self defense rounds and to expect them to always shoot those rounds. If you can afford to shoot several hundred/thousand of factory rounds every year, that is great. Do not assume everyone else can.

If asked in court why I used extra deadly hand load ammo, I'll reply "cost". I used what I always use in my gun, every day, for taget practice and for self defense. Those who purchase "special" ammo for carring or HD are setting yourselves up for the DA to ask "Why did you go out and purchase special extra deadly ammo to shoot the victum? That is not the choice of ammo you shoot at the range. You went out and bought special ammo to kill someone, thats premeditated murder!"

Good luck with that.

[Yankee Clipper]

I don't think anyone would recommend using FMJ for SD purposes these days.

That said, I can remember hearing on a number of occasions back in the nineteen-eighties from a number of presumed reliable sources (including one who was an expert witness on firearms matters and another who was an police range instructor), that no civilian should never use hollow-points especially Hydra Shoks and the like in a defensive weapon, because any DA worth his salt could quickly convince a jury that loading anything but ball ammo (plenty lethal for the military, after all) was conclusive evidence of premeditation, and murderous intent.

I remember the same stories/conversations and the answer at the time was: "If your target load is at least as reliable as factory fodder then use it for SD purposes. Within the 7 yards, where most defensive shootings take place, target loads are plenty deadly. You won't look like a sadistic killer with target loads to a jury." I'm not sure anybody still buys that reasoning.

[NotEnufGarage]

Cost.

I reload because I shoot so much that ammo costs are a real issue. I use my reloads for HD because I know they work and are reliable in my gun. If you only "refresh" the ammo in your self defense gun once a year, how do you know the reliability of the gun/ammo?

My sights are set for my handloads. Switching back and forth with hand loads and factory ammo is unwise. Will the factory ammo (that you rarely shoot through your gun) function when needed in a crisis? It is very narrow sighted to assume everyone can afford the best factory self defense rounds and to expect them to always shoot those rounds. If you can afford to shoot several hundred/thousand of factory rounds every year, that is great. Do not assume everyone else can.

If asked in court why I used extra deadly hand load ammo, I'll reply "cost". I used what I always use in my gun, every day, for taget practice and for self defense. Those who purchase "special" ammo for carring or HD are setting yourselves up for the DA to ask "Why did you go out and purchase special extra deadly ammo to shoot the victum? That is not the choice of ammo you shoot at the range. You went out and bought special ammo to kill someone, thats premeditated murder!"

Good luck with that.

So, you're a cheap bastard who want to make sure that whoever you shoot dies immediately?

A safer (legally) approach would be to purchase factory HD load, preferably the same ammo your local PD carries and work up practice loads that mimic its performance. That way when the DA asks why you had "special ammo" for HD, you can truthfully answer that you asked your local PD what they use and you purchased the same thing, since if it's the best and safest for them, it would be the best and safest for you. The DA probably wouldn't even ask that question.

[YubaRiver]

Nobody sued a major corporation for burning themselves with hot coffee before the McDonalds incident. That case speaks volumes about some of the stupidity that occurs in our judicial system. Are you willing to bet it all on 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty?

Several people sued McDonalds before this lady. They had exceptionally
hot coffee that could cause terrible burns and then served it through a drive through window with cups with flimsy lids, where they knew some spilling would occur.

Someone was imprisoned partly for using factory ammo that was considered
too powerful (FBI's choice 10mm). No one has been imprisoned for using hand loads.

You have it all backwards.

I suppose if you really want to play it safe you should use only tiny hardball
factory rounds. Go back to the 38 long colt or something.

[YubaRiver]

There's a potential downside, however small, to using handloads, or even using factory 10mm, .44Mag, S&W .500 etc.

The upside is . . .

Oh, wait a minute, there is no upside. Not one that's worth taking the risk for.

I'll stick with my production hollowpoints (outside Mass) (in either .40 or .45ACP) and leave you all to weigh up what you want to do.

Mr Fish used a 45acp.

[Wherryj]

Would you let someone else pack your 'chute?

I could show you the velocities of my handloads, with written records, over time,
that have lower standard deviation, by far, than factory loads. They also match
load data recipes for velocity in the loading manuals. This is
something anyone with a little time to test can do, not than I am any kind
of superior being when it comes to pouring powder into a piece of brass. I just
have the gun to work with which the ammo factory does not.

When your life depends on something, why go with an inferior product if you
can do a better job yourself?

Actually, if I was ever to decide it necessary to jump out of an airplane, I would most certainly want someone else to load my parachute-I have no expertise in doing so.

Fortunately home loading isn't quite the same thing. So long as you can follow the "recipe" and have good attention to detail, home loads should be at least as good as factory loads.

[vincewarde]

Here is one such case. The jury believed he was a carrying a 10mm gun
(as issued then by the FBI) and he was convicted. " prosecutor to argue that one of the two combatants had a powerful 10 mm gun loaded with hollow point bullets while the other had nothing."

Fish appealed and the decision was reversed. Cost him a bunch of money.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

Can you show me where using handloads have caused a similar or worse problem?

I believe that Fish was using handloads - but I am not positive. He was backpacking and carrying for defense against Mt Lions. The incident happened as he was almost back to the road.

The jury, when interviewed after his conviction, said that the power of the gun was THE SOLE FACTOR the tipped them towards conviction. Had he used a less powerful gun, they would not have convicted him. Absolutely absurd.

What does this prove? It proves that the prosecution will do it's very best to keep "gun people" off the jury. We understand handloads well. We know that the practice is common - most non-gun owners do not even know it is done. It is one more case you have to make - so why create it?

Besides, I don't reload pistol ammo to use in self defense. I load practice/target ammo. I'll hunt with my reloads. After 40 years I trust them totally - but I think the argument that it creates one more issue is convincing.

[YubaRiver]

"I believe that Fish was using handloads "

Would be good to know. I didn't see handloads mentioned in the article I read
or remember hearing about handloads when the case was discussed on Guntalk.

[boxcab]

So, you're a cheap bastard who want to make sure that whoever you shoot dies immediately?

Not sure where this insult is going, so I'll ingore it.

A safer (legally) approach would be to purchase factory HD load, preferably the same ammo your local PD carries and work up practice loads that mimic its performance. That way when the DA asks why you had "special ammo" for HD, you can truthfully answer that you asked your local PD what they use and you purchased the same thing, since if it's the best and safest for them, it would be the best and safest for you. The DA probably wouldn't even ask that question.

Sounds like "premeditated intent" to me. By using the same ammo I always use, for any situation, I feel very safe that I can explain my use of it. You go ahead and shoot your "special ammo" and then explain to the DA why you restrict it's use to only the bad guys.

[Glock22Fan]

Mr Fish used a 45acp.

Pretty sure it was 10 mm.