I'm sure it's "here we go again time"...handloads and self defense

[BoxesOfLiberty]

I'm going to throw in a different twist to this discussion. Which is more harmful to a legal defense, using JHPs vs. fmj, or handloads? I've hear more rhetoric and BS about hollowpoints being the magic death ray bullets than about handloads.

I don't think anyone would recommend using FMJ for SD purposes these days.

That said, I can remember hearing on a number of occasions back in the nineteen-eighties from a number of presumed reliable sources (including one who was an expert witness on firearms matters and another who was an police range instructor), that no civilian should never use hollow-points especially Hydra Shoks and the like in a defensive weapon, because any DA worth his salt could quickly convince a jury that loading anything but ball ammo (plenty lethal for the military, after all) was conclusive evidence of premeditation, and murderous intent.

[rugershooter]

If that's the case, what makes you think you won't be sued or somehow face adverse legal consequences even if you are absolutely spotless and it was a 100% good shoot? That ties in with my question about jhp vs. fmj and factory vs. handloads. We gunners know that expanding ammunition is better for defensive purposes than non expanding ammunition. But even so, you may face adverse legal consequences by using expanding ammunition, if the DA wants to persecute you in some way. I've never heard of any actual cases of the happening, but then again I haven't researched it.

ETA: The above was my response to SilverTauron.

[Maestro Pistolero]

I see no reason to introduce the slightest doubt into a self defense case, as the cost of carrying quality factory ammo is so minimal in the long run.

Once I'm confident in a factory load for carry, I carry it for 2-3 years then replace. I am diligent to avoid contaminating primers with solvents and lubricants, and I regularly check for set-back on rounds that may have been chambered multiple times.

Also, when I chamber my carry ammo, I make an exception to the rule of not riding the slide forward, because dropping the slide full-force, multiple times on the same round can cause bullet setback that can lead to dangerous pressures.

I am careful to choose rounds that have a crimp or are otherwise manufactured to prevent bullet set-back.

I have fired old rounds that were carried for a few years (old hydra-shoks and others) from the late eighties and early nineties that still functioned as new.

[longhairchris]

Prosecutors can say anything they want. Who's to say that they wouldn't grill you for using the same ammo as the local PD (as is often recommended here)? They could just as easily paint you as a "cop-wannabe vigilante" for using police style ammunition. Just use what you want, it should be irrelevant when it comes to a good shoot.

Lawyers would argue your choice of boxers vs briefs if they thought it would help their case.

[SilverTauron]

The game isn't based on what the opposing counsel says,but how easy it is to refute their statements.
In one of Ayoob's many books,a guy with a 1911 and two magazines was portrayed in court as a 'vigilante' because he carried 25 rounds of 'especially deadly' .45ACP.Ayoob was able to refute the bogus claim by citing the courts own bailiffs as examples of responsible people carrying spare mags.

Remember,a 'jury of your peers' will not be 12 guys from the local gun club.If you were unlucky enough to end up shooting someone you'll likey end up with 12 people who think a barrel shroud is 'the thingy that goes up'.Good luck refuting the 'madman creating cop killer bullets in his basement lair' meme to 12 Brady Brainwashed sheeple who get their gun info from Terminator sequels.

[CBruce]

??????


You guys act as if we don't live in The Age of Moronic Litigation.

McDonalds lost a lawsuit for serving HOT COFFEE.

Here are 3rd degree burns that Stella Liebeck suffered from the 'hot cofee' in question that prompted the infamous 'hot cofee' lawsuit. VERY GRAPHIC AND NSFW.

...[she] suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[13] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg).[14] Two years of medical treatment followed.

She wanted a mere $20k to cover her actual and expected medical expenses. McDonald's refused to offer more than $800. She was forced to hire an attorney and the jury awarded her $160k + $2.7mil in punitive damages to McDonalds (1-2 days worth of revenues from McDonald's coffee sales at that time).

All of those amounts were reduced by 20%, and they eventually settled out of court before an appeal for an undisclosed amount, but it's still heralded as the poster-child for uncessary litigation and tort reform.

[dantodd]

The kind of gunpowder used in heat seeking bullets when fired from the rifle with the shoulder thing that goes up.

The kind of gunpowder that is shot from across the room. Remember it was the defense atty. that claimed the gunpowder used didn't leave powder residue.

[dantodd]

The chances of having any legal issue in a clearly legal shoot because of using reloads is very small. The chance of having it brought up in a civil case following a shooting (where the requirement for evidence is lower) would seem much greater.

It's really cheap insurance for 25 rounds/year.

[Scottie15]

It's really cheap insurance for 25 rounds/year.

The cheapest part of any shoot (be it a tournament, hunt or self defense) is the ammo. Why not splurge and buy some factory defensive loads?

[YubaRiver]

"The cheapest part of any shoot (be it a tournament, hunt or self defense) is the ammo. Why not splurge and buy some factory defensive loads?"

Why not splurge and take the time to make something more accurate?

[Maestro Pistolero]

Why not splurge and take the time to make something more accurate?

How accurate do you need a round to be that's going to be fired at under 25 yards, or even more likely, under 25 feet? If you are in a "defensive" shooting at more than 75 feet, I suspect you'll have some 'splainin to do.

[YubaRiver]

Okay, you have convinced me. Only factory ammo all the way.

[Meplat]

If that's the case, what makes you think you won't be sued or somehow face adverse legal consequences even if you are absolutely spotless and it was a 100% good shoot? That ties in with my question about jhp vs. fmj and factory vs. handloads. We gunners know that expanding ammunition is better for defensive purposes than non expanding ammunition. But even so, you may face adverse legal consequences by using expanding ammunition, if the DA wants to persecute you in some way. I've never heard of any actual cases of the happening, but then again I haven't researched it.

ETA: The above was my response to SilverTauron.

[NotEnufGarage]

How accurate do you need a round to be that's going to be fired at under 25 yards, or even more likely, under 25 feet? If you are in a "defensive" shooting at more than 75 feet, I suspect you'll have some 'splainin to do.

Most self-defense shootings are probably at less than 20 feet.

[SanPedroShooter]

Massad Ayoub thinks it is. I like to see references and case numbers so others can analyze the case(s). I'll also point out one of his 2 cases he points out it was an "issue" but didn't affect the outcome of the case. He says so.

I understand its because the ballistic evidence is or can be, or will be thought to be, unduplicatable or inconsistent. Theoretically, if handloads are more accurate than factory because of their consistency, the effects and result should be more predictiable than factory...

But, the factory keeps detailed records (so do I), the factory makes and sells millions of rounds a year, you are just an 'amatuer' (I'll put my handloads up against any factory loads) in the end, its one factor that you can dismiss if you shoot someone with FBI or the local police approved ammo as opposed to super deadly poison bullets you made yourself in your basement....

I think its more a perception issue than any reality.

By the way, I found a deal on 9mm gold dot projectiles, I thought about buying a few hundred so I can practice more frequently with the same rounds I carry.

Does Ayoob have any cases that arent from the dark days of uber gun control histeria?