I'm sure it's "here we go again time"...handloads and self defense

[cdtx2001]

"In reference to the Case of Daniel Bias. Brass tacks summary, the police acquired a warrant and seized everything firearm related in the plaintiffs home during the investigation, including his reloads.The Grand Jury sought a murder charge because the handloads in the death weapon didn't leave gunshot residue for the crime lab to detect, which contradicted Bias' statement that his wife killed herself with his gun."

What kind of gunpowder doesn't leave residue?

The kind of gunpowder used in heat seeking bullets when fired from the rifle with the shoulder thing that goes up.

[greg36f]

When it comes right down to it, why would you intentionally complicate a situation that is complicated already? Yeah, a good shoot is a good shoot no matter what gun or ammo you use, but you would be an idiot to throw anything into the mix that you do not have to.

Using hand loads in a personal defense weapon is foolish. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to use hand loads with all the good quality factory stuff out there.

I mean, I can see you just coming back from the range and heck goes down; you have no choice but to use what you got.

But why would you choose to do such a thing?

[ubet]

Coming from a different aspect of this, handloads can have problems. Whoever has loaded pistol ammo has not fully crimped some before. So, you put this one uncrimped round into your magazine and go about your day. You are forced to draw and shoot, when that un crimped bullet goes to feed and it jams. I have never and pray to god I am never in a gunfight, but I think the last thing you want in a gunfight, is for your GUN TO JAM.

Not saying all factory loads are 100% perfect, but the fact of accidently missing something like that, and having it affect me in a life or death situation, is the reason I carry ranger ts in my carry gun.

[Bhobbs]

When it comes right down to it, why would you intentionally complicate a situation that is complicated already? Yeah, a good shoot is a good shoot no matter what gun or ammo you use, but you would be an idiot to throw anything into the mix that you do not have to.

Using hand loads in a personal defense weapon is foolish. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to use hand loads with all the good quality factory stuff out there.

I mean, I can see you just coming back from the range and heck goes down; you have no choice but to use what you got.

But why would you choose to do such a thing?

I reload most of the ammo I shoot. Why? Because I enjoy it and it is cheaper in many cases. That is the reason I would reload my self defense ammo.

[ojisan]

Coming from a different aspect of this, handloads can have problems. Whoever has loaded pistol ammo has not fully crimped some before. So, you put this one uncrimped round into your magazine and go about your day. You are forced to draw and shoot, when that un crimped bullet goes to feed and it jams. I have never and pray to god I am never in a gunfight, but I think the last thing you want in a gunfight, is for your GUN TO JAM.

Not saying all factory loads are 100% perfect, but the fact of accidently missing something like that, and having it affect me in a life or death situation, is the reason I carry ranger ts in my carry gun.

Any ammo, factory or handload, that I would carry for self defense is inspected and chamber checked for fit before use.
As you say, defects can be found everywhere.
That said, for $20 you can get a box of factory SD ammo and avoid the possible legal headaches completely.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...

[opos]

Well, it all comes back to Ayoob's court testimony and his "opinion" on things. I'm not an Ayoob fan as I said before and with the years and years of "don't use handloads in SD or carry weapons" I still have to see one documented case other than Ayoob's famous "this proves it" citings.

I don't use handloads in my SD weapons because I do believe it can introduce a variable that could be damaging to a person involved in a self defense shooting (especially in California)...I've "spread the word" for years about don't used handloads so I'm not critical of anyone that does that...I just got called out by someone about what my post is about...and only that....other than Ayoob's citings...come up with one case out of the multitudes of self defense shooting cases (not suicides, etc) where home brew ammo was actually, directly cited as part of the reason a "defender" got charged with a crime....and frankly I can't find anything and nothing posted here goes beyond Ayoob's paper.

Ayoob, in my opinion, is like the Forensic Pathologist Baden. He makes his living testifying in court for money and spends much of his time as a special guest on this or that news program. It's all about the public image. When Ayoob cites a case where the situation is powder burns at a specific distance and that it was not handloads but factory ammo involved, and they were able to test the same ammo...and says that proves that factory ammo is repeatable, therefore handloads are bad....is way too much of a stretch for me to be convinced that that proves anything...he wants us to believe that because factory loads are repeatable that everything else is not...and frankly I just don't buy that logic.

My whole question was citing specific cases where handloads were the cited culprit in a self defense situation...not powder burns, not suicide examination and not a theory that if factory loads are repeatable that all other loads are not.

[X231]

If a jury would send someone up the river for the type of ammo they used it doesn't say much for our justice system does it?

[SilverTauron]

........ our justice system does it?

There is a significant distinction between a "justice system" and the current "legal system" in place today.

[Mulay El Raisuli]

I believe the OP's question has been answered. Put simply using hand loads for self defense introduces a variable in court. When it comes to our legal system variables are not good.

Remember that this is just the case summary from one experienced expert court witness. These sorts of problems can take place all over the country, and without dilligent and expensive case searches we'll never concretely know how often hand loads play in convicting someone of a civil or criminal penalty.

I also believe the OP's question has been answered. There's ONE 'maybe' from 30 years ago (with other factors thrown in) & that hardly constitutes evidence that use of a handload will cause a problem.

IMHO, the fact that there are no citations (despite "diligent" searching) showing conclusively that handloads are a problem tells me that I won't have a problem if I should find myself having to explain to the cops how that felon got that fatal bullet wound.


The Raisuli

[YubaRiver]

Many handload BECAUSE they can do a better job than the factory loads, in their gun.
Handloads can be tailored to each firearm for best feeding and
accuracy. The old saying, if you want it done right, do it yourself. (Not talking
about self dentistry or brain surgery here).

Then you can practice with the same ammunition you carry.

How do you prove your cartridge was factory ammo anyway?

Attorneys will throw everything on the back porch to see if the cat licks it up.
They could easily make up nonsense about factory rounds being something
special too.

[YubaRiver]

Would you let someone else pack your 'chute?

I could show you the velocities of my handloads, with written records, over time,
that have lower standard deviation, by far, than factory loads. They also match
load data recipes for velocity in the loading manuals. This is
something anyone with a little time to test can do, not than I am any kind
of superior being when it comes to pouring powder into a piece of brass. I just
have the gun to work with which the ammo factory does not.

When your life depends on something, why go with an inferior product if you
can do a better job yourself?

[scarville]

This conversation raises a new question: What exactly is "factory ammo"?

Are the loads from someplace like Buffalo Bore considered "factory"? How about the reloads from someone with a type 6 FFL?

[rugershooter]

I'm going to throw in a different twist to this discussion. Which is more harmful to a legal defense, using JHPs vs. fmj, or handloads? I've hear more rhetoric and BS about hollowpoints being the magic death ray bullets than about handloads.

[SilverTauron]

??????


You guys act as if we don't live in The Age of Moronic Litigation.

McDonalds lost a lawsuit for serving HOT COFFEE. Do you guys really think that in a day and age where "moral relativism" is socially acceptable, that you WON'T face adverse legal consequences after a 'good shoot'?

Personally ,I believe we should prepare for court as much as we prepare for a gunfight. Both are stressful tests of one's survival, and losing either fight can have drastic consequences for one's future. Its a textbook Pyrrhic victory to win the gunfight and to lose in court, with the attendant consequences of spending decades behind bars -or suffering the enduring disgrace of writing a civil damages check to the family of the dead scumbag.

Stuff happens. That's why we carry weapons to begin with. If something goes bad on the street, you could end up dead. If something goes bad in court, you can end up in prison or impoverished. To avoid these outcomes certain measures are wise. On the street, you carry a reliable gun that can be shot accurately under stress. In the courtroom, you don't give the opposing counsel reasons to hang you.

[YubaRiver]

??????


You guys act as if we don't live in The Age of Moronic Litigation.

McDonalds lost a lawsuit for serving HOT COFFEE.

Lame example. The lady got 3rd degree burns. After countless others
received same and McD's was warned. Real injurys. Not made up stuff.
Don't rely on Rush for your legal advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants

You are spreading FUD.
Where are your real examples of handloads being a problem? Why wouldn't factory loads
cause similar concern. "Military grade, Police quality, etc."