Is my logic wrong?

[MindBuilder]

I see my error. 12125(a) says "imports into the state for sale"

So it would seem the solution to this part is not to make your mind up about whether you are going to sell it or register it until after you get into the state.

12125(a) also penalizes someone who "offers or exposes for sale" an unrostered handgun. But I wouldn't think that applies to selling a gun to a licensed dealer who it can be reasonably presumed is going to legally turn around and sell it out of state. Otherwise, anyone owning an old unrostered handgun would be unable to sell it to a licensed dealer. Every dealer will know for sure if they can legally buy unrostered handguns.

[GOEX FFF]

No. I live in Ontario. I was just typing in the first person. I'm trying to understand the laws.

BTW: Diesel, where did you get that I wanted to sell guns illegally to "gang bangers"?

Really...That's a little uncalled for. I don't see anywhere in your posting for anyone to make such an assumption like that...

[morrcarr67]

MindBuilder - I see what you're saying.

But, think about it. PC 12072 (f) (2) (a) MAKES you; as a person moving to CA, plan what you are going to do.

PC 12072 (f) (2) (a) gives you 3 options. If you chose to comply with this law by going with clause (ii) you violate PC 12125 (a).

[dustoff31]

But, think about it. PC 12072 (f) (2) (a) MAKES you; as a person moving to CA, plan what you are going to do.

It doesn't require you to do any planning in advance. It simply gives you a list of things to choose from. You must complete one of those actions within 60 days of the guns arrival in CA.

PC 12072 (f) (2) (a) gives you 3 options. If you chose to comply with this law by going with clause (ii) you violate PC 12125 (a).

Only if you planned in advance to import the gun with the intent to sell it.

[Librarian]

I believe dustoff31 has it.

As you have quoted, 12072 (f)(2)(ii) says

(ii)Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the provisions of subdivision (d) or in accordance with the provisions of an exemption from subdivision (d).

Remember, 12072(d) says

(d)Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

and 12082 (a) says

(a)A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

and 12132 says

This chapter [Roster] shall not apply to any of the following:

(a)The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

So, unless you're importing with the specific intention of selling an off-Roster handgun, a personal handgun importer is not violating PC 12125 (Roster requirements) by selling an off-Roster handgun in lieu of filing the PHI papers.

[morrcarr67]

It doesn't require you to do any planning in advance. It simply gives you a list of things to choose from. You must complete one of those actions within 60 days of the guns arrival in CA.

So, unless you're importing with the specific intention of selling an off-Roster handgun, a personal handgun importer is not violating PC 12125 (Roster requirements) by selling an off-Roster handgun in lieu of filing the PHI papers.

I understand that.

It's kind of like when I was a kid. Some people would make fun of children with mental disabilities by smacking themselves in the chest or head and asking you if it hurts when you do that? You say; Yes. And, they say well don't do that.

Granted as you say 12072 (f)(2)(a) doesn't "make" you "plan" what you are going to do.

However, you are in a life changing situation. You are moving from one state to another. You probably are "planning" that move.

You own guns. You have heard that CA has strange gun laws. So, you investigate the laws regarding moving to CA with your guns. And, you "plan" on "complying" with the laws of CA.

You find PC 12072 (f)(2)(a) and completely "plan" on "complying" with it. Under PC 12072 (f)(2)(a) you see that there are 4 ways to "comply" with it.

Clause (i) Forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report prescribed by the department including information concerning that individual and a description of the firearm in question.

Clause (ii) Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the provisions of subdivision (d) or in accordance with the provisions of an exemption from subdivision (d).

Clause (iii) Sell or transfer the firearm to a dealer licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

Clause (iv) Sell or transfer the firearm to a sheriff or police department.

So, under your thinking the only thing you can do is to "plan" on sending in the "registration" form because clauses (ii), (iii) and (iv) all have the words "sell or transfer" in them and that is a direct violation of PC 12125 (a)

Which brings me to my still unanswered question:

But I continue to read PC 12125 and find 12125 (c)

(c)Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to each handgun and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and other provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision, but the penalty to be imposed shall be determined as set forth in Section 654.

I understand "Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to each handgun" means that they can charge you for 3 counts of violation if you manufacture, import, sell 3 guns.

But what does "shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law" mean?

The way I read it that one part of that sentence makes PC 12125 (a) not applicable to PC 12072 f(2)(a) clause (ii).

Is my logic wrong?

So let's look at that section again:

(c) Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to each handgun and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and other provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision, but the penalty to be imposed shall be determined as set forth in Section 654.

Let's brake that down a little more:

Violations of subdivision (a); bringing in an unsafe gun for sale

shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law; with full intent on "applying" law 12072 (f)(2)(a) clause (ii)

Does the wording in PC 12125 (c) make 12125 (a) not enforceable to someone "planning" to "comply" with PC 12072 (f)(2)(a) and any clause other than (i)?

Meaning it is legal to import unsafe handguns under the "application" of CA law # 12027(f)(2)(a) clause (ii)

[morrcarr67]

BTW - I want to make sure everyone knows that I am not trying to get in an argument with you.

I appreciate all your input and respect all your thoughts.

[Librarian]

It seems to me you are overthinking this by a lot.

If you are moving here and bringing your off-Roster handguns, you are not importing them for sale, you are bringing them because you are moving here.

12072(f)(2)(ii) says you can sell them instead of register them, and you can use 12072(d), PPT to do that (that is, a non-licensee being required to use an FFL to make a sale). 12131(a) exempts sales -- all sales -- from the Roster if they are to satisfy 12072(d). 12131 doesn't ask about origin or intention - if you are an unlicensed person transferring through an FFL because CA requires it, that transfer is exempt from the Roster requirement of 12125.

[morrcarr67]

It seems to me you are over thinking this by a lot.

If you are moving here and bringing your off-Roster handguns, you are not importing them for sale, you are bringing them because you are moving here.

12072(f)(2)(ii) says you can sell them instead of register them, and you can use 12072(d), PPT to do that (that is, a non-licensee being required to use an FFL to make a sale). 12131(a) exempts sales -- all sales -- from the Roster if they are to satisfy 12072(d). 12131 doesn't ask about origin or intention - if you are an unlicensed person transferring through an FFL because CA requires it, that transfer is exempt from the Roster requirement of 12125.

I understand what you're saying and I see your point.

You are right. You are bringing your guns because they are yours.

To comply with PC 12072 (f)(2)(a) you plan on using clause (ii) are you in violation of any other PC?

Do you have an opinion on my questions regarding PC 12125 (c)?

[bwiese]

Morcar,

Let's keep it simple.

- Rostering status is ONLY a gateway to dealer sale of 'inventoried' handguns. The Roster is NOT a
bar to current possession or to moving into CA with non-Rostered handguns. If someone has true,
legit dual-state residency [really more of an ATF issue], he can acquire non-Rostered handguns in
another state and move back into CA with them (he must file papers with DOJ however).

Transfers such as PPT or consignment sales, to LEOs or gov't agencies, "operation of law" transfers,
inheritance/bequest transfers, or for return of already-owned handguns to their owners (say, from
FFL gunsmith) do not require Rostering.

Rostering also isn't relevant for loans by FFLs of non-Rostered handguns to "consultant-evaluators" for
magazine reviews: this is sometimes called "the Peterson exemption" since Peterson Publications is (or
was) in LA and publishes Guns & Ammo.

Rostering is not required for C&R handguns nor 12133PC-exempt dimensionally compliant single-shot pistols
and single-action revolvers.


- you're allowed to bring any non-Rostered or Rostered handguns into CA when you move in. (Providing
they're otherwise legal - not an AW or SBS or unconventional pistol, etc.) You have 60 days from bringing
handguns into CA to report them to DOJ on the New Handgun Ownership Report form.


That's generally all anyone has to worry about.

[Librarian]

I understand what you're saying and I see your point.

Do you have an opinion on my questions regarding PC 12125 (c)?

It does not apply.

The 'chapter' in PC 12132 is "California Code - Chapter 1.3: Unsafe Handguns [12125. - 12133.]" link.

ALL OF that chapter prior to 12131 is inapplicable

This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:

(a)The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

to the case in question.

[Briancnelson]

I concur with Librarian.

My reading is that you are NOT just "importing". You are moving to the state. You bring property with you. You then elect to sell it in compliance with the law rather than register it. Personal importation by changing residency is handled differently in several statutes, including the New Resident registration statute.

This differs from someone who visits with a pistol he wants to sell, then goes back home afterward.

[morrcarr67]

OK.

Thank you all for your time and input.

[chris12]

I concur with Librarian.

Concur also

My reading is that you are NOT just "importing". You are moving to the state. You bring property with you.

Be careful here. With that logic you could move with (yet somehow not import) 10+ size mags, which is illegal (assuming they were not here before 2000).