Lautenberg: Can't buy guns if on No Fly list.

[M. D. Van Norman]

[Dreaded Claymore]

Every time someone tries to buy a gun in the U.S., the background checks include the terror watch list. When there is a match, the information is shared with the FBI case agent who is leading the terrorism investigation, according to a counterterrorism official who spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss the process.

To deny all people on the watch list from purchasing a weapon would mean the government would have to tell someone he or she is on the list. A person who knows he is on a watch list could change his behavior or even his identity to avoid detection, the official said.

Sounds to me like this would not only be an abomination against due process of law, but also not the best way to catch terrorists.

[CHS]

As Bruce Schneier says:

The "No Fly list". A list of people SO DANGEROUS we can't allow them to fly on airplanes (or buy guns), yet SO INNOCENT we can't put them in jail.

What I have to say: Due process or GTFO.

[Paper Boy]

Is there even a real set of guide lines for how people get put on the list? Or is it a "make it up as you go" type thing?

[Ford8N]

The sheep love Lautenberg.

[CHS]

Is there even a real set of guide lines for how people get put on the list? Or is it a "make it up as you go" type thing?

If there is a real set of guidelines, it's protected as a state secret.

Nothing about the no-fly list is transparent. It's nothing but a clear unconstitutional removal of due process.

[Stonewalker]

As Bruce Schneier says:

The "No Fly list". A list of people SO DANGEROUS we can't allow them to fly on airplanes (or buy guns), yet SO INNOCENT we can't put them in jail.

What I have to say: Due process or GTFO.

Mr. Schneier is the man. And I completely agree. Due Process or bust. I wish all judges felt the same way

[robcoe]

The stupidest thing(it's a long list, and a tight race for first place) about the no fly list is that it assumes a terrorist will be flying under their own name and that, while they are willing to kill themselves for their cause, they somehow wont be willing to change their name to avoid the list.

LInk to story

[Stonewalker]

This is actually sort of worrisome. It came up last year (many times before then I'm sure) but it went nowhere. Perhaps they are ramping up support to expand the Terrorist Watch List powers?

[fairfaxjim]

The problem is a vast majority of Americans would support this.

IMHO the most dangerous single threat to constitutional rights is the "war on terrorism" and the combination of totally illegal laws/regulations it has spawned along with the successful fear campaign that the american public has swallowed. You take the fact that far more people have a fear of flying than most of us realize and combine it with the Government's "fear of dying in a terroist caused plane crash", ANYTHING, no matter how stupid, costly, or downright illegal that lands under the HOMELAND SECURITY umbrella is embraced by the sheeple.

The No Fly list becomes a very convenient, no matter how inappropriate, vehicle to demonize anyone that you want to, as long as you can dump their name onto a secretely maintained list that has no due process even allowed regarding it.

It is getting so stupid that I have LOCAL and REGIONAL government agency contracts that require all of our employees who participate in them be "cleared" not on the No Fly list. These contract have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with flying, airports, aviation, airplanes, TSA, or anything that the list was instituted to supposedly deal with.

I am against using the No Fly list even for flying, much less ANY other unintended purpose. It has the potential to make Joe McCarthy and the commie hunters look like boy scouts.

[stix213]

Seeing that there is no publicly known criteria for getting placed on the watch list beyond the whim of the state, this sounds like exactly the kind of thing a "fundamental right" is not supposed to allow.

[Arondos]

I will NEVER support anything like this. Why?

About 6 years ago I flew from Seattle to Cleveland to go deer hunting with my Dad. The trip there was fairly uneventful. I had to go through a special screening because my left arm was in a full length arm cast. (Broke my wrist at command PT).

Five days later I go to check in and my e-ticket won't process, I stop an airline employee and they try. It still won't go through. I get told I have to go to the ticket counter. I get there and tell the nice lady behind the counter my ticket won't work, give her my paperwork and she tries.

She kind of frowns and says "Well, you have a very common name and it is showing up on a watch list."

My response was "You have got to be ******* kidding me."

She looks up as I apologize for the f bomb. She then asks for I.D. I pull out my green I.D. card toss it on the counter and told her.

"I've been active duty for 19 years. I've got more clearance than anybody who works in this airport. Please tell me where I need to go and whose *** I need to put my size eleven boot up to straighten this cluster **** out."

She made a phone call and after a bunch of yes, yes, uh-huh, I understand that. I hear her say well all it has is a name, it is a common name. I asked him for I.D. and he gave me a military I.D. card, says he has been active duty for 19 years, and he is not going to be happy he he has to come down to your office to straighten this out.

She hung up, typed some stuff in the computer, handed me my boarding pass, apologized for the inconvenience.

I apologized for my colorful language, went and boarded my flight.

[CalBear]

I will NEVER support anything like this. Why?

About 6 years ago I flew from Seattle to Cleveland to go deer hunting with my Dad. The trip there was fairly uneventful. I had to go through a special screening because my left arm was in a full length arm cast. (Broke my wrist at command PT).

Five days later I go to check in and my e-ticket won't process, I stop an airline employee and they try. It still won't go through. I get told I have to go to the ticket counter. I get there and tell the nice lady behind the counter my ticket won't work, give her my paperwork and she tries.

She kind of frowns and says "Well, you have a very common name and it is showing up on a watch list."

My response was "You have got to be ******* kidding me."

She looks up as I apologize for the f bomb. She then asks for I.D. I pull out my green I.D. card toss it on the counter and told her.

"I've been active duty for 19 years. I've got more clearance than anybody who works in this airport. Please tell me where I need to go and whose *** I need to put my size eleven boot up to straighten this cluster **** out."

She made a phone call and after a bunch of yes, yes, uh-huh, I understand that. I hear her say well all it has is a name, it is a common name. I asked him for I.D. and he gave me a military I.D. card, says he has been active duty for 19 years, and he is not going to be happy he he has to come down to your office to straighten this out.

She hung up, typed some stuff in the computer, handed me my boarding pass, apologized for the inconvenience.

I apologized for my colorful language, went and boarded my flight.

Imagine going through a similar process when trying to buy a gun. Similar name, no dice.

[Dreaded Claymore]

IMHO the most dangerous single threat to constitutional rights is the "war on terrorism" and the combination of totally illegal laws/regulations it has spawned along with the successful fear campaign that the american public has swallowed. You take the fact that far more people have a fear of flying than most of us realize and combine it with the Government's "fear of dying in a terroist caused plane crash", ANYTHING, no matter how stupid, costly, or downright illegal that lands under the HOMELAND SECURITY umbrella is embraced by the sheeple.

I never understood fear of flying, but then again,

1. I have been flying on airliners since I was one year old.
2. I have understanding of how an airplane, or other winged thing, flies.

The No Fly list becomes a very convenient, no matter how inappropriate, vehicle to demonize anyone that you want to, as long as you can dump their name onto a secretely maintained list that has no due process even allowed regarding it.

Have there been instances of this kind of thing happening? I mean, has someone appeared on the no-fly list who just happened to be the daughter/husband/priest/gay lover of some Representative who opposes all these "homeland security" expansions of government power?

[robcoe]

Have there been instances of this kind of thing happening? I mean, has someone appeared on the no-fly list who just happened to be the daughter/husband/priest/gay lover of some Representative who opposes all these "homeland security" expansions of government power?

Ted Kennedy opposed a lot of "Homeland Security" theater policies and ended up on the no fly list.