About to get crazy on some CCW etc. applications

[AJAX22]

I'm moving out of university housing here in NYC in a couple of weeks... which means the last (theoretical) barriers to my lawful gun ownership in NYC are about to go away.

So It is my intention to file for every possible permit that they offer, at a state and local level...

Probably will file for my C&R license, and Utah/Florida CCW permits, as well as my NYC concealed Cary permit.

and since I maintain a residence in CA, I'm also going to file for my CA CCW permit.

I have a buddy who is going to set me up with a meeting with the only NFA/SOT/07FFL in the city to see about getting 'employee' status so I can obtain some serious toys... and who can help walk me through the processes, but Its not a 100% certainty so while I am optimistic I temper that optimism.

I do however have a couple of questions.

1) Are Utah and Florida the only states which issue non resident CCW permits?

2) Is anyone familiar with NYC's rifle/shotgun permitting process?? do I have to pay $55 and register each individual long arm? or can I just pay once and bring in a couple dozen rifles and shotguns?

3) NYC has a restriction on pistol magazines which is only 17 rounds, but the rifles are 5 rounds... what happens if I have a magazine which works in both a rifle and a pistol?

4) If I obtain a NYC CCW (and I AM going to get one) how do I go about getting all of my pistols added to it?

5) If I already own firearms out of state (and I do), how do I go about legally bringing them into NYC? do I have to run them all through a dealer? what about guns that I have made myself that have no serial numbers or markings?

6) If I wanted to open an 01/07FFL in NYC (or have a kitchen table business) what permitting would I need?

7) also does Alan Gura or the 2AF need an NYC gun guy who's squeaky clean? I'm bound to get denied/hassled/f'ed around.... so if my 'good cause' can be tailored to better slap them down in court later I'm more than willing to do so.

If they need other guys to file as well (I admit I do look like a bit of an Aryan nations recruiting poster....even though I'm 1/2 Jewish) I've been networking like crazy with some of the other NYC libertarians and could get you a cross section of business owners, investment bankers, financial consultants, etc... many with minority heritage and all with clean records.

And I'm more than willing to put in the leg work walking around to every business owner and resident that I can talk to and helping them file an application as well.

I'm going to create a gun culture in NYC... this is where the next big fight is going to be... and I think it can be won.

[NightOwl]

1. No, most states offer them. The requirements to get them vary state to state, however. Not sure off the top of my head, but I'd say it's around 44 states, or so, that issue non-res permits.

[Kharn]

Getting employee status just for "access to serious toys" will put both you and the FFL at risk, the ATF frowns upon such shenanigans.

[AJAX22]

Getting employee status just for "access to serious toys" will put both you and the FFL at risk, the ATF frowns upon such shenanigans.

So I'll blank convert some firearms on weekends and tune some sears for them.... they can pay me 1$...

I'm not going to take the stuff home with me at night or anything... just play with it at the range and have an excuse to build some fun stuff...

The BATFE knows damn well that most 02 SOT's just have them to play with toys... Its not a particularly lucrative field, and there is NO one (outside of some police departments and the .gov that pick up that stuff at near cost) who can legally buy most of it.

[anthonyca]

I'm moving out of university housing here in NYC in a couple of weeks... which means the last (theoretical) barriers to my lawful gun ownership in NYC are about to go away.

So It is my intention to file for every possible permit that they offer, at a state and local level...

Probably will file for my C&R license, and Utah/Florida CCW permits, as well as my NYC concealed Cary permit.

and since I maintain a residence in CA, I'm also going to file for my CA CCW permit.

I have a buddy who is going to set me up with a meeting with the only NFA/SOT/07FFL in the city to see about getting 'employee' status so I can obtain some serious toys... and who can help walk me through the processes, but Its not a 100% certainty so while I am optimistic I temper that optimism.

I do however have a couple of questions.

1) Are Utah and Florida the only states which issue non resident CCW permits?

2) Is anyone familiar with NYC's rifle/shotgun permitting process?? do I have to pay $55 and register each individual long arm? or can I just pay once and bring in a couple dozen rifles and shotguns?

3) NYC has a restriction on pistol magazines which is only 17 rounds, but the rifles are 5 rounds... what happens if I have a magazine which works in both a rifle and a pistol?

4) If I obtain a NYC CCW (and I AM going to get one) how do I go about getting all of my pistols added to it?

5) If I already own firearms out of state (and I do), how do I go about legally bringing them into NYC? do I have to run them all through a dealer? what about guns that I have made myself that have no serial numbers or markings?

6) If I wanted to open an 01/07FFL in NYC (or have a kitchen table business) what permitting would I need?

7) also does Alan Gura or the 2AF need an NYC gun guy who's squeaky clean? I'm bound to get denied/hassled/f'ed around.... so if my 'good cause' can be tailored to better slap them down in court later I'm more than willing to do so.

If they need other guys to file as well (I admit I do look like a bit of an Aryan nations recruiting poster....even though I'm 1/2 Jewish) I've been networking like crazy with some of the other NYC libertarians and could get you a cross section of business owners, investment bankers, financial consultants, etc... many with minority heritage and all with clean records.

And I'm more than willing to put in the leg work walking around to every business owner and resident that I can talk to and helping them file an application as well.

I'm going to create a gun culture in NYC... this is where the next big fight is going to be... and I think it can be won.

Good luck. Keep us posted as much as you can. Have you talked to yellowfin( I think that's his SN) on here? He is in New York.

[9mmlaw]

3) NYC has a restriction on pistol magazines which is only 17 rounds, but the rifles are 5 rounds... what happens if I have a magazine which works in both a rifle and a pistol?

Magazine Capacity Restrictions
New York State limits the magazine capacity of new handguns to 10 rounds. However, using high capacity magazines that were manufactured before September 13, 1994 is permissible. Use or ownership of high capacity magazines manufactured after that date is a class D felony.

Just make sure that the magazines were manufactured before the "magic" date.

[AJAX22]

Magazine Capacity Restrictions
New York State limits the magazine capacity of new handguns to 10 rounds. However, using high capacity magazines that were manufactured before September 13, 1994 is permissible. Use or ownership of high capacity magazines manufactured after that date is a class D felony.

Just make sure that the magazines were manufactured before the "magic" date.

Thats a state level restriction, the city gets a bit more dicy...

[CHS]

1) Are Utah and Florida the only states which issue non resident CCW permits?

I know for a fact that Arizona, Washington, and Nevada offer non-resident CCW permits. However, you have to make a trip to that state in order to apply and/or take their required classes.

I'm going to create a gun culture in NYC... this is where the next big fight is going to be... and I think it can be won.

I had a friend of a friend move to NYC for school as well. When he got there he tried to get permits for his handguns. He got one for his .22 (Ruger MKII), but when he asked about one for his .45 (1911) they basically laughed him out of the station.

Apparently NYPD doesn't want their subjects to have ANY firepower that is better and/or more powerful than their own. Good luck!

[AJAX22]

I know for a fact that Arizona, Washington, and Nevada offer non-resident CCW permits. However, you have to make a trip to that state in order to apply and/or take their required classes.



I had a friend of a friend move to NYC for school as well. When he got there he tried to get permits for his handguns. He got one for his .22 (Ruger MKII), but when he asked about one for his .45 (1911) they basically laughed him out of the station.

Apparently NYPD doesn't want their subjects to have ANY firepower that is better and/or more powerful than their own. Good luck!

I'll be recording and publishing any conversations I have with law enforcement on the subject (who are acting in an official capacity)

Its legal

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/new-jersey/new-york-recording-law

They can Laugh their way into a title 1983 suit..

Police officers acting illegally and outside their scope of authority may be liable under Section 1983 despite the requirement that the officers must have been acting under color of state law. The statutory words "under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory" contained in 42 U.S.C. 1983 do not exclude acts of an official or police officer who can show no authority under state law, custom, or usage to do what he or she did or who even violated the state constitution and laws. The city of Chicago, however, was not held liable, because the Court ruled that Congress did not intend to bring municipal corporations within the ambit of Section 1983 (this ruling was later overturned by the Court).

[Kharn]

1) Are Utah and Florida the only states which issue non resident CCW permits?

No, but they are the two that offer the most reciprocity.

4) If I obtain a NYC CCW (and I AM going to get one) how do I go about getting all of my pistols added to it?

I wish you luck, you might want to wait for Gura's NY state case to receive a ruling from the Circuit level before you make your move.

6) If I wanted to open an 01/07FFL in NYC (or have a kitchen table business) what permitting would I need?

There are very few 'kitchen table' dealers, you will need zoning approval to conduct either commercial business (01) or light industrial (07). 07 has many more requirements, you will need to demonstrate knowledge of hazardous materials from your manufacturing process, pay the $2250/yr ITAR fee, sell firearms you have created, etc.

7) also does Alan Gura or the 2AF need an NYC gun guy who's squeaky clean? I'm bound to get denied/hassled/f'ed around.... so if my 'good cause' can be tailored to better slap them down in court later I'm more than willing to do so.

This isn't Alan Gura's forum, here's his website: Gura & Possessky.

I'm going to create a gun culture in NYC...

So I'll blank convert some firearms on weekends and tune some sears for them.... they can pay me 1$...

I'm not going to take the stuff home with me at night or anything... just play with it at the range and have an excuse to build some fun stuff...

An employee must be a genuine employee of the business, above minimum wage, time cards, benefits, etc. A responsible employee is one trusted to remove firearms from the premises for work-related activities, sales demos, range days, test firing, etc, but those firearms must return to the premises whenever practical. Storing an M16 in your apartment because its fifteen blocks from the store is not going to fly. You would have to put in serious hours working at the shop for the same pay as other employees, no special priviledges, etc. You can't just show up and jump into a role like you are envisioning without serious credentials or work.

The BATFE knows damn well that most 02 SOT's just have them to play with toys... Its not a particularly lucrative field, and there is NO one (outside of some police departments and the .gov that pick up that stuff at near cost) who can legally buy most of it.

That may be your impression, but that is not how an FFL works. A person may greatly enjoy building firearms and may get an FFL so they can make firearms (including Title II) for profit, but that does not make it acceptable to have an FFL solely for "serious toys." You must show that you are running a legitimate business and not just evading 922(o) by declaring yourself a business vs a private individual. And outside of NY and CA, there is a thriving NFA market, the internet has greatly expanded the pool of knowledgeable buyers looking for a suppressor, SBR or SBS.

[AJAX22]

No, but they are the two that offer the most reciprocity.
I wish you luck, you might want to wait for Gura's NY state case to receive a ruling from the Circuit level before you make your move.

There are very few 'kitchen table' dealers, you will need zoning approval to conduct either commercial business (01) or light industrial (07). 07 has many more requirements, you will need to demonstrate knowledge of hazardous materials from your manufacturing process, pay the $2250/yr ITAR fee, sell firearms you have created, etc.

This isn't Alan Gura's forum, here's his website: Gura & Possessky.



An employee must be a genuine employee of the business, minimum wage, time cards, benefits, etc. A responsible employee is one trusted to remove firearms from the premises for work-related activities, sales demos, range days, test firing, etc, but those firearms must return to the premises whenever practical. Storing an M16 in your apartment because its fifteen blocks from the store is not going to fly. You would have to put in serious hours working at the shop for the same pay as other employees, no special priviledges, etc. You can't just show up and jump into a role like you are envisioning without serious credentials or work.

That may be your impression, but that is not how an FFL works. A person may greatly enjoy building firearms and may get an FFL so they can make firearms (including Title II) for profit, but that does not make it acceptable to have an FFL solely for "serious toys." You must show that you are running a legitimate business and not just evading 922(o) by declaring yourself a business vs a private individual.

The definition of what constitutes an employee for a business is rather loosely defined.... you don't need to be hourly, you can be a salaried employee (or you purchase an equity interest in the company etc. there are further relaxations of the rules) and as for credentials, I have good ones which I don't want to get into here... (they are good enough to get me the introduction and meeting) even still, like I said, its not a certainty just a possibility.

I've known and worked with a number of FFL's in various capacities including 07/02's as a way of getting access to toys which were otherwise restricted... most that I've known have less than 1/2 of 1% of their business from NFA items, yet hold all the necessary permitting and a nice selection of demonstrator guns (with a cost of 10-20X their annual sales in those fields) so they clearly are not licensed as a way of actually turning a profit.

The BATFE doesn't really care all that much about the 'for profit' nature of the business... all you have to do is be nominally in it for the money and not even that is required with regularity, if you'll recall, the VPC in Washington DC holds/held an 01FFL license... and I can GUARANTEE they've never sold a firearm to anyone.



p.s. At no point am I talking about removing any NFA items from the premises of the manufacturer, I just like to tinker, and I'd want to accompany them to the range to test fire some of the toys... that is all.

[wash]

Good luck.

I know that it's very difficult getting permits for a handgun in NYC, maybe even a rifle permit, I don't know.

In CA, the process that works is you find someone with similar circumstances that has got the permits you want, then you do exactly the same thing they did. If you are denied you have an equal protection case.

Things might work differently in NYC and I know the courts are very different.

Make sure you have a good plan before you start filling out anything.

Consulting a lawyer who deals with NYC firearms laws would probably be a good idea.

[Kharn]

The definition of what constitutes an employee for a business is rather loosely defined.... you don't need to be hourly, you can be a salaried employee (or you purchase an equity interest in the company etc. there are further relaxations of the rules) and as for credentials, I have good ones which I don't want to get into here... (they are good enough to get me the introduction and meeting) even still, like I said, its not a certainty just a possibility.

Regardless of how you are paid, the ATF would consider you invalid if you worked for a dollar or other trivial amount. Good luck purchasing an equitable share in a corporation if you're also expending cash on every available license.

I've known and worked with a number of FFL's in various capacities including 07/02's as a way of getting access to toys which were otherwise restricted...

Then why are you asking us how to get into the business? Ask your friends/employers.

most that I've known have less than 1/2 of 1% of their business from NFA items, yet hold all the necessary permitting and a nice selection of demonstrator guns (with a cost of 10-20X their annual sales in those fields) so they clearly are not licensed as a way of actually turning a profit.

Then you don't know the right people or they're running their business incorrectly. An SOT might not bring much per year on top of an FFL, but if you run an FFL without making a profit and its main activities revolve around buying cool toys you otherwise wouldn't be able to purchase you will have a big problem when your ATF audit occurs. An 07 will have to demonstrate manufacturing capability and sales of those firearms, if you make MGs you'll need to show attempted bids on contracts or R&D (suppressor design is a popular way since almost every 07 will have a lathe).

Most indoor ranges use post-samples as their rental guns due to the price vs a transferable (and much lower risk if some yahoo breaks your MP5), and there are multiple dealers that only manufacture NFA firearms. $35 per magazine through the MP5 or $50 per mag in the M16 brings in the profit very quickly.

The BATFE doesn't really care all that much about the 'for profit' nature of the business... all you have to do is be nominally in it for the money and not even that is required with regularity,

An FFL is required to operate as a business, try to tell your auditor that the ATF doesn't care about profit when your shop is selling maybe one or two guns a week (usually to the same small group of people) and you're claiming you are open 9-5x5 yet you've got a safe full of toys you otherwise couldn't own. They will decline your renewal stating you're not in the business.

if you'll recall, the VPC in Washington DC holds/held an 01FFL license... and I can GUARANTEE they've never sold a firearm to anyone.

VPC's FFL has been reported numerous times and audits requested (I don't know if a Congressman or Senator has ever made the request, but I know a lot of citizens have called for a review; I've even left Sugarman a voicemail asking for an appointment to discuss a transfer after Heller, he never called back ). Strangely nothing happens, I wonder if it has to do with ATF management agreeing with their propaganda.

p.s. At no point am I talking about removing any NFA items from the premises of the manufacturer, I just like to tinker, and I'd want to accompany them to the range to test fire some of the toys... that is all.

You won't have much of an appetite for 'tinkering' after the entire FFL application process is done and you've shelled out several thousand dollars to be in compliance with all applicable laws and regulations.

[Bukowski]

You won't have much of an appetite for 'tinkering' after the entire FFL application process is done and you've shelled out several thousand dollars to be in compliance with all applicable laws and regulations.

LOL you know you're talking to the man who:

1.) spent more time configuring his briefcase than most Calgunners spent at the range last year

2.) spent more time refinishing his goggles than they spent writing AB962

3.) spends more time finding obscure firearms than the Democrats spent pushing through the healthcare bill...

4.)....etc. etc.

The man's appetite for tinkering is insatiable....

[Saigon1965]

I believe anything is possible with enough funds behind it -

Good luck out there Ajax -

I'm going to create a gun culture in NYC... this is where the next big fight is going to be... and I think it can be won.