OCEANSIDE: Man dies of injuries suffered in fight...

[socal2310]

I thought there was an unsaid rule to not draw/shoot on anyone that doesn't have a weapon in their hands? I've read this in many threads. Some say not to shoot a home invader even because the courts will get you in trouble. What I was saying in the first post was, I believe fist fighting should be considered a weapon as well and I as I understand it, CA courts don't really give leniency to a shooter if the attacker was using his fists alone, which is bull crap if you're a smaller guy.

Google "disparity of force" and reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. If you can articulate why you reasonably felt that you were under imminent threat of great bodily injury or death, then you can legally shoot an unarmed assailant. A young, physically fit, assailant against an older victim certainly qualifies as disparity of force.

Regarding home invasion, read C.P.C. 198.5 It might not be a good idea to use deadly force against someone that you know is unarmed, but if someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night, I'm not going to any great trouble to determine whether he's armed or not, because the law says that my fear of great bodily injury or death is a priori reasonable.

Ryan

[hawk1]

Excerpt:

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/oceanside/b9ff051a-e9b3-5509-8fa0-9aca8be64fd5.html

Guns and alcohol don't mix so that's not what I'm saying here. Fists can be deadly weapons, contrary to what the law thinks. 53 years of age vs 35 might have something to do with it but a 53 year old isn't exactly incapable either, all things considered. My point is, fists can be used as weapons and should be viewed that way by the law, as clearly demonstrated by this tragic story.

A gun had nothing to do with this. Did you fall and hit your head or something? If you want to use this as a vehicle to push for more CCW then use it that way.
Babies and 5 gallon buckets don't mix, so please try and conserve water...

[missiondude]

actually if you put your hands in your pockets just the right way you are guilty of "brandishing a weapon"

Or touching yourself in public...

[biglou]

I thought you couldn't CCW in a bar so it wouldn't apply. If you draw down on someone who was about to give you a beat down, wouldn't the Judge ask why didn't you retreat ?

[Wherryj]

Alcohol was the primary issue in this.

No, someone's personality disorder made more severe by alcohol was the primary cause.

Alcohol is a disinhibiting substance. It just magnifies personality traits. If you are a violent jerk who has trouble with impulse control, alcohol magnifies your issues.

Alcohol alone is no more the cause than a firearm is the culprit in a murder. It all boils down to the person who uses it.

[biglou]

No, someone's personality disorder made more severe by alcohol was the primary cause.

Alcohol is a disinhibiting substance. It just magnifies personality traits. If you are a violent jerk who has trouble with impulse control, alcohol magnifies your issues.

Alcohol alone is no more the cause than a firearm is the culprit in a murder. It all boils down to the person who uses it.

I'll drink to that !

[Chitwood]

Massad Ayoob on "disparity of force"

SoCal2310 has it right - Massad Ayoob, who has written many books on when armed defense is justifiable, often refers to "disparity of force". Basically, if two people attack you with their fists, or if you are older and someone much younger attacks you (such as this case), or if the attacker is much bigger and stronger than you, you have the fundamental right to assume your life is at risk and defend yourself with deadly force even if the other party has no physical weapon. In most cases, pulling a gun in this situation will end the conflict without a shot being fired and Ayoob is often called to testify in these types of "illegally brandishing a weapon" cases where no one was hurt but the local prosecutor doesn't understand gun law.

As for illegally carrying in a bar or the more common consumption of an adult beverage at a regular restaurant while carrying - I can't recommend breaking the law, but as my next-door neighbor puts it - "I'd rather be a live offender than a dead complier". Should I leave my CCW in the car when I'm going to have one glass of wine with my meal at a restaurant that is about to have a just-fired tweaker dishwasher walk in with an AK47? Hmmm, tough one...

[Code7inOaktown]

Yeah, that happened in NYC. A freak thing that ruined the life of two people.

I suspect it's not that uncommon. This happened in Oakland about three months ago. A low life attacked a 60ish man who had gone to confront said low life and his friend because the low life had decked the victim's son for no reason. The victim died of a head injury after hitting his head on the pavement.

I think it was a mistake for the victim to go chasing after two low lives but he didn't attack them, they attacked him.

[Paladin]

There was a different outcome when this 85 y.o. man was attacked in a robbery attempt, but he had: (1) a CCW permit, and (2) a .25 auto. See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=346273

I divide CCWing into two points since MANY who get their CCWs stop carrying after a few months. Their primary HGN is too big/heavy/a pain/whatever and they stop carry. Much better to have a .25 acp on you than a 9mm/.45 acp/.50 GI at home. Remember that when you're thinking about what HGNs to put on your CCW.

.380s and snubbies are really popular for a reason.