(CRPA) Peruta v. San Diego: Motion to Amend Complaint Granted

[Gray Peterson]

The fact is, these islands had incredibly bloody war-like cultures before the arrival of Europeans. They basically used heavy wooden clubs to beat each other to death. Winners got to eat losers and take their wives. That all ended when the Europeans came but they do have a tradition of brawling. If that same behavior persisted, but using guns, they would wipe themselves out. And armed society is a polite society. As a corollary, you don't have brawling in armed societies. A brawl is used to determine social hierarchy and introducing a gun into it wrecks the whole thing.

Unfortunately, there's also a problem with rape. There are probably some women who would like something that lets them say "no" to a 300 lbs guy with years of brawling experience. But they don't have the political power to do anything about this. Voting on the islands goes purely on patronage issues. There's probably some calculation as well - of course rape is awful, but shooting and killing someone who has been a neighbor for generations has a lot more long-term consequences on a small island than it does in a big city, even if the shooting is 100% morally and legally justified.

The last paragraph is rather telling. Cultural or no, an American citizen or national has a right to possess a handgun in the home for self defense, and also outside of the home too. Women especially need this.

Also, would holding up a sign opposing the territorial governor get you arrested? It still would be a 1A violation, and challengeable under 42USC1983.

[CCWFacts]

The last paragraph is rather telling. Cultural or no, an American citizen or national has a right to possess a handgun in the home for self defense, and also outside of the home too.

I agree absolutely. I'm just pointing out one of the reasons why women there might choose not to defend themselves. It's awful, but that is an unfortunate side of island life. When people live together for generations, and there is no mobility, and everyone knows everyone, and everyone is related somehow, there's a lot more reluctance to use lethal force for self-defense. If a dispute gets resolved with a brawl, the parties involved can move on from it eventually and continue living as neighbors and family members. If that same dispute were ended with one side using lethal force for legitimate self-defense, it might protect that person in that moment but they would have a lot of problems for the rest of their lives. That's probably why gun rights have no appeal on these islands. It can be hard for us mainlanders to realize how small and immobile the world of island life is.

For better or for worse, however, they are part of the United States and they are under our Constitution which now includes an individual right to armed self-defense. Cultures need to adapt to external circumstances sometimes. In another area, the various island cultures have also had a hard time adapting to readily available alcohol and supermarkets. Life isn't easy, things change, people need to adapt to the world sometimes.

Also, would holding up a sign opposing the territorial governor get you arrested? It still would be a 1A violation, and challengeable under 42USC1983.

I was in the CNMI once during an election campaign and there were people holding up signs on all the roads. Elections are vigorously contested but I think they come down purely to family and patronage. I don't have any numbers and I'm too lazy to search right now but I bet voter turnout in the CNMI is higher than it is in the mainland.

[Paladin]

FWIW, IIRC, there's a large Samoan/Chamoan/Pacific Islander "community" in East Palo Alto. I think there's also one in the East Bay, maybe Oakland or San Leandro. I'm sure you could find out w/a few calls and/or googling. You could probably find details by searching because it was mentioned a year or two ago when a major storm hit their islands and the news spoke of how many were living in the Bay Area.

They might be able to reach out to that/those communities and they might know someone back "home" who'd be interested. Or maybe one of them is planning on moving home for some reason, but wants to take back with them their 2nd A RKBA that they discovered in, of all places, California.

[joedogboy]

It is especially nice that it clearly addresses the "open secret" that bribes are frequently involved in the CCW process.

Once it is shown that those who contribute to the Sheriff get special favors regarding their CCW applications, the Sheriff needs to go to prison for a long, long time. This would send a clear message to other Sheriffs to cease and desist these illegal shakedowns.

[N6ATF]

If he won't go to prison for conspiracy to commit summary execution, why would he go down for bribery? Though since there's no statute of limitations for murder, there's still time, I guess.

[7x57]

If that same behavior persisted, but using guns, they would wipe themselves out. And armed society is a polite society. As a corollary, you don't have brawling in armed societies. A brawl is used to determine social hierarchy and introducing a gun into it wrecks the whole thing.

I'm not convinced that you can't have this--what you require is culturally accepted rules that regulate weapons usage. Take European duelling--it was rarely done with the most efficient weapons, at least after the Middle Ages; light polearms dominate blades, for example, but that didn't matter because there were rules and one was that you don't bring a bill or poleaxe to a sword duel. If that is possible, there is no reason unarmed combat cannot be the means of socially honorable combat--in fact, we often had that as an effective rule in the US. I think I recall stories of disputes at sea where a mate took the knives and let the sailors settle their dispute "with the weapons God gave them" (though even there it is clear there were social rules, such as what constituted ending the fight). I believe that to have been a common occurrence in other similar social settings.

Whether they can adapt to such things is one thing, but it certainly can and has been done many times.

The point, though, is that there is no Prime Directive in the Constitution, and no cultural sensitivity provision. US citizens have the legal right to armed self-defense on US soil, and if the law were followed it would simply not matter what the local custom was. I'm not obliged to follow custom if I choose not to, but the law is obliged to protect my right to self-defense.

So do we think domestic violence groups will join with us in creating a fund to supply double-action revolvers for women in US overseas possessions who want them? How could they not?

7x57

[7x57]

It can be hard for us mainlanders to realize how small and immobile the world of island life is.

Maybe for you city boys, but I've been in small towns with a lot of people who have lived their whole life there.

7x57

[CCWFacts]

(They could use dueling rules)

I dunno - it's hard for me to imagine. But maybe! Maybe it would be like sumo wrestling.

The point, though, is that there is no Prime Directive in the Constitution, and no cultural sensitivity provision. US citizens have the legal right to armed self-defense on US soil, and if the law were followed it would simply not matter what the local custom was.

Absolutely right, and I'm happy about it. It's not fair, but the fact is, a certain set of Europeans founded America, and they had certain values, and one byproduct of those values was vast economic and military power, and so now a few other pieces of the world, such as the CNMI and Guam and Hawaii, must live under our legal system, and rights in our system have no regard for other cultures or traditions.

I simply do no care that every single native inhabitant of Saipan would despise the idea of me carrying a gun on their island. Their island is under the authority of the United States Constitution and therefore they have no say in the matter. If they don't like it, they should have invented atomic weapons and capitalism before we did.

So do we think domestic violence groups will join with us in creating a fund to supply double-action revolvers for women in US overseas possessions who want them? How could they not?

Haha. The theory is sound!

The place where all this matters is not in the remote islands, but in Hawaii, where there are real problems of crime (including rape), the perpetrators are often BIG, and there are enough people there who understand the idea of armed self-defense. I believe that we will have incorporation on Monday, and that I (and all other qualified people) will have a right to keep and bear arms while in Guam and Saipan, and the locals won't be able to stop me from doing it, but they will not develop any interest in owning guns themselves.

[Crom]

Perhaps this case should be added to:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...mportant_Cases

Yes. I second this suggestion.

Gorski's Mehl and Rothery appeals court cases are on hold pending Nordyke en banc, same with the San Francisco District Court case (Pizzo v. Newsom). This case would have no effect and there is no way to avoid a "train-wreck" if the courts decide to be dishonest.

Who is this Gorski? And does anybody know why he hasn't been brought into the fold?

It's a valid fear. One of his not so good CCW cases is in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. If he loses it before we can get any of the cases out of District Courts then we could be held up in the 9th and would need to create a circuit split out of other circuits and hope for a SCOTUS grant...

-Gene

Has anyone from CGF reached out to Gorski?

[bwiese]

Has anyone from CGF reached out to Gorski?

Gene had and there was a whole thread some time ago with a very unprofessional stream of invective from Gorski.

Future briefs in Gorski cases may actually even use a spell checker.

[ke6guj]

Gene had and there was a whole thread some time ago with a very unprofessional stream of invective from Gorski.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=184321

[Crom]

edit: post moved because it's off topic.

[7x57]

I dunno - it's hard for me to imagine. But maybe! Maybe it would be like sumo wrestling.

It's been done. Speaking from extremely superficial knowledge, something vaguely similar appears to be the origin of Brazilian Ju-Jutsu, for example.

I simply do no care that every single native inhabitant of Saipan would despise the idea of me carrying a gun on their island. Their island is under the authority of the United States Constitution and therefore they have no say in the matter. If they don't like it, they should have invented atomic weapons and capitalism before we did.

A tad blunt, but those are precisely the facts.

The place where all this matters is not in the remote islands, but in Hawaii, where there are real problems of crime (including rape), the perpetrators are often BIG, and there are enough people there who understand the idea of armed self-defense.

Hmm, I've seen some sumo-sized Samoans, and I've heard reports of guys with so much body fat that police 9mms underpentrated....OK, make those revolvers .44 mag or even .580 Ruger. I don't care how big you are, .44 mag can be loaded with enough penetration to slow you down.

That said, I feel a bit guilty about giving that much gun to someone of say, Japanese descent who is 110 lbs soaking wet. Perhaps we need a catalog so the women can choose their firearm.

I believe that we will have incorporation on Monday, and that I (and all other qualified people) will have a right to keep and bear arms while in Guam and Saipan, and the locals won't be able to stop me from doing it, but they will not develop any interest in owning guns themselves.

Unfortunately, political correctness would be so strong that a lot of judges would flagrantly violate the law to avoid cultural offense.

Me, I'd carry an AR over my shoulder in the local temple if that's the only way to get my rights respected.

7x57

[dantodd]

Hmm, I've seen some sumo-sized Samoans, and I've heard reports of guys with so much body fat that police 9mms underpentrated....OK, make those revolvers .44 mag or even .580 Ruger. I don't care how big you are, .44 mag can be loaded with enough penetration to slow you down.

That said, I feel a bit guilty about giving that much gun to someone of say, Japanese descent who is 110 lbs soaking wet. Perhaps we need a catalog so the women can choose their firearm.

Laying the ground work for your "SMG/Machine Pistols are required by some for self-defense" lawsuit?